Is New Jersey Really that Horrible? (Newark, Trenton: apartment, condo, houses)

[Kappy]

Originally Posted by NJ Bear

"Potholes and buckled roadways are different than litter. A lot of northern states have problems with winter damage to roads."

This is true, but NJ barely counts as a "northern" state climate-wise, especially in recent years. NY, VT, NH, ME all have much worse frost damage than NJ- and they still have better-engineered roads that are in better condition.... AND are actulally plowed and salted in the winter, too!!! I guess that's what happens when all the tax funds that are supposed to go to highway maintenance get redirected to the general fund instead. Oh yeah, don't forget that despite the high taxes, the state has been basically bankrupt for years.

Per a previous post or three, were it not for family and friends I'd leave. There's nothing here for me otherwise. USed to be that parts of the state were nice but that changed in 80s and 90s, now the whole state is pretty much just a giant 'burb of NYC with the associated high COL, sprawl, urban influence, materialism, traffic, etc. People who thrive in the urban/materialistic lifestyle love it here; those who don't either tolerate it for other reasons or leave. The biggest advantage is that even when the economy is down there are always jobs because there is so much business and industry located here; many places get hit a lot harder when the economy slows or a certain industry vital to the region closes or cuts back. So despite having absurdly high costs, at least you can almsot always count on there being work of some sort out there, whereas some places are far cheaper to live but if the economy slows there is no work.

Ever see the cranberry bogs, peach orchards, blueberry farms, corn fields, tomato farms,++++so much more. Don't forget this is the garden state not just the burbs of NYC.

[tommyc_37]

Originally Posted by NJ Bear

"Potholes and buckled roadways are different than litter. A lot of northern states have problems with winter damage to roads."

This is true, but NJ barely counts as a "northern" state climate-wise, especially in recent years. NY, VT, NH, ME all have much worse frost damage than NJ- and they still have better-engineered roads that are in better condition.... AND are actulally plowed and salted in the winter, too!!! I guess that's what happens when all the tax funds that are supposed to go to highway maintenance get redirected to the general fund instead. Oh yeah, don't forget that despite the high taxes, the state has been basically bankrupt for years.

Per a previous post or three, were it not for family and friends I'd leave. There's nothing here for me otherwise. USed to be that parts of the state were nice but that changed in 80s and 90s, now the whole state is pretty much just a giant 'burb of NYC with the associated high COL, sprawl, urban influence, materialism, traffic, etc. People who thrive in the urban/materialistic lifestyle love it here; those who don't either tolerate it for other reasons or leave. The biggest advantage is that even when the economy is down there are always jobs because there is so much business and industry located here; many places get hit a lot harder when the economy slows or a certain industry vital to the region closes or cuts back. So despite having absurdly high costs, at least you can almsot always count on there being work of some sort out there, whereas some places are far cheaper to live but if the economy slows there is no work.

Why do people always say that NJ is "urban" ?? The only urban part of NJ is really Hudson County. Maybe a few towns in Union County and Essex County (Elizabeth, Newark, Irvington). This is such a ridiculously small part of NJ, that it's insane to say NJ is urban. Most of NJ is suburban, some of it is urban, and some of it is rural. I'd say 50% suburban, 25% urban, and 25% rural. That is an AWESOME mix. Cannot find that anywhere else, especially in such close quarters.

[Eric S]

Originally Posted by BobKovacs

If, however, you don't have the family ties or the need to work in/near NYC, there's not much in NJ that you can't find someplace else at a much lower price, and that's why so many people are bailing out of the state.

You've said it!

-Eric

[Ninjahedge]

First post on the thread (after page one).

Guys, lets just stop with the road thing. It isn't the frost itself that matters. When you get colder, the ice actually shrinks a bit, so ice at -40 is no more damaging than ice at 32 degrees.

The areas in temperate zones, ones where you get multiple freeze-thaw cycles, THEY get the most damage. If you have 4 major snowstorms in the winter, but it melts after each one, you get 4 (or more) freeze cycles (especially when you get the melt/freeze day/night thing), and you get a lot more salt water pouring over our concrete and steel structures.

Add that to the fact that NJ roads get TRAVELED on much more and you can see where they need more maintainance.


Aside from that, I can say that I like many areas of NJ. I do not like some things, obviously. The popcorn condos that went up all over during the bubble in areas that are now ruined (Hudson River Valley. Good bye nature! Hello Condo Developments!) or simple not geared for what was built.

Taxes, oh they are just SUPER! (not). No-one likes them, but we have one of teh better school systems, rail system, roads bridges tunnels and other amenities that other states do not have in any comparable way. It costs more to go to the Marriot Marquis than the local HoJo. Not saying that NJ is a 5 star in any way, but you get what you pay for.

I also agree with what someone else has said here. You will probably not find too many people out there that, after moving AWAY from NJ (of their own volition), be able to say that it was great. They moved because they wanted to. Some may have moved because, as was said, they hated something enough to force them to leave the things they LIKED about it (and probably still miss). At this point it is VERY common, in both human life and in really bad made for TV movies, for people to insult what they left behind so they do not feel so bad about leaving it.


Bottom line is simple. NJ has a lot. You do not realize it until you leave and go cross country what it does have in such a small, nondescript area. It has mountains (Apalacians), it has state parks that remind all of Upstate (Deleware River Gap), it has great beaches (maybe not crystal blue water like Hawaii, but HUGE ones like Wildwood that makes Waikiki look like a theme park.)


I am sure there are many areas around this country that are also great, but why everyone has to say that other places stink, or that theirs is somehow BETTER than someplace else is not a mystery, and it is just plain sad.

Oh, and just so everyone knows? Nascar is not a NC Hillbilly thing. There are plenty of townies in NJ that LOVE that stuff too. Me? Personally? Never did anything for me, but that says nothing about its popularity elsewhere.

Maybe NJ has less that like it per capita than NC, but that may be more because of their proximity to places like NY and Philly than their relative hillbilly %.


BTW, I would think hicks and motorheads would like Nascar better than Hillbillies anyway. I think the HB's would prefer a truck rally/tractor pull over a bunch of cars going around in a circle really fast!

[NJ Bear]

"The areas in temperate zones, ones where you get multiple freeze-thaw cycles, THEY get the most damage. If you have 4 major snowstorms in the winter, but it melts after each one, you get 4 (or more) freeze cycles (especially when you get the melt/freeze day/night thing), and you get a lot more salt water pouring over our concrete and steel structures."


Tell me why it is then that in every state North of NJ one routinely encounters massive frost heaves every winter? As in, slow down to 5mp or less and hump your way over them? I have never once in my life seen a frost heave in a road in New Jersey that you would actually have to slow down for, other than -maybe- tap the brake a little just for personal comfort. Re: the comment about salt... every state DOT north of NJ uses way more salt per lane mile than NJ. The roads in NY state are usually white all winter... and it's not because they're snow covered. Another example- in Quebec, when they do highway repairs it means they literally are ripping out the whole road for a few miles all the way down to the subbase and building in back up. If you guess "frost damage" for the reason why, you'd be correct.

Other states also plow snow when there's at most 1" of snow on state higwhays. How often do we drive on the Interstate in Nj through 3-4 inches of slush and pass DOT trucks salting without the plows even mounted on the trucks? They could actually maintain the same (poor) level of service they do now and use LESS salt if they'd just mount the plows, and DROP them, about 2-6 hours before (i.e., 2-4 inches) before they do. NJ has the worst winter maintenance of any state in the northeast save maybe CT.


"Add that to the fact that NJ roads get TRAVELED on much more and you can see where they need more maintainance."

NJ roads also have far more taxpayers to pay for repairs/maintenance. ;-)



"Why do people always say that NJ is "urban" ??"

I laugh every time I hear people come out to Warren county and act like they're in the boonies. These people apparently don't know what "boonies" are and think they've gotten there just because they can go a couple miles between traffic lights or shopping malls. You'd think they were in Montana.
Anyone that doesn't agree that NJ is largely urban and that there is any significant rural area left hasn't travelled much outside of the eastern seaboard. Having seen what "rural" really is, I would say Morris, Union, Essex, Hudson, Bergen, Somerset, Middlsex, and good portions of several other counties are "urban". Add to that the Trenton area, Camden area, much of the shore, AC, etc. The only parts of the state that are truly rural, in the sense that "rural" is defined everywhere else more than an hoiur or two from NYC, are the northwestern half of Sussex, extreme NW Warren, the pine barrens, and some farming areas down south. And the rest of the state not described above is what most from places other than NJ would call "suburban".


"Ever see the cranberry bogs, peach orchards, blueberry farms, corn fields, tomato farms,++++so much more. Don't forget this is the garden state not just the burbs of NYC."

It is true that a few plces in extreme NW NJ and southern NJ can still legitimately be called farming areas, although even then these areas are in many cases largely bedroom communities that have managed to retain significant ag acreage.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

[ssd3]

Don't forget beautiful Hunterdon County. IMHO, the most beautiful county in NJ. The wonderful riverfront towns of Milford. Frenchtown, Stockton and Lambertville. Hunterdon County where there is a farm stand almost every few miles(and you pay on the hornor system) and where you can pick your own pumpkins , Christmas Trees, apples and strawberries. Go tubing and boating down the Delaware. Awesome schools where your kids feel safe. I love Hunterdon County and NJ and would give anything to be able to move back after living in NC for the past 8 months.

[Ninjahedge]

Tell me why it is then that in every state North of NJ one routinely encounters massive frost heaves every winter? As in, slow down to 5mp or less and hump your way over them?

Poor drainage.

If you have too much water content in your soil then you will get a heave as the soil freezes over. We are talking about different animals here, as a heave WILL cause damage if it is not attended to.

I have never once in my life seen a frost heave in a road in New Jersey that you would actually have to slow down for, other than -maybe- tap the brake a little just for personal comfort. Re: the comment about salt... every state DOT north of NJ uses way more salt per lane mile than NJ. The roads in NY state are usually white all winter... and it's not because they're snow covered.

You haven't been to Oakland, have you? Now that 287 goes through it, it is not attended to quite as often, but it still has roads dry by lunchtime from an overnight snow.

It was very dissapointing as a kid to not have a snow day when everyone else did!!! (I guess with a road like Skyline Drive, yuo get better at laying salt to prevent death!)

Another example- in Quebec, when they do highway repairs it means they literally are ripping out the whole road for a few miles all the way down to the subbase and building in back up. If you guess "frost damage" for the reason why, you'd be correct.

Wow, combative.

But the thing that is being expressed is potholes. If the road is taken away because of poor drainage causing heave, that is a major repair, not the potholes you see in NJ.

I know where you are coming from, and it is a definite concern, but how much money does that cost the average taxpayer to repair that road?

BTW, after trekking up to go skiing, I have never encountered frost heave on the better drained roads. Are you talking about low-lying areas with a high water table?

My only point was that , just like tides, the surface damage to roadways is more when you go through repeated exposure cycles.

But if you want a medal for worst winter road damage, congrats, here's your medal.

Other states also plow snow when there's at most 1" of snow on state higwhays. How often do we drive on the Interstate in Nj through 3-4 inches of slush and pass DOT trucks salting without the plows even mounted on the trucks? They could actually maintain the same (poor) level of service they do now and use LESS salt if they'd just mount the plows, and DROP them, about 2-6 hours before (i.e., 2-4 inches) before they do. NJ has the worst winter maintenance of any state in the northeast save maybe CT.

$$. It is more expensive on the roads and equipment to plow. It also takes longer (you can go a bit faster if you are just spreading). i am not validating this, but I can see why.


[quoteNJ roads also have far more taxpayers to pay for repairs/maintenance. ;-)[/quote]

I know I know, but you also know it don't work that way. Teh more roads you have, and the more drivers ON them, the more it ends up costing no matter how many you have paying.

Also, add to it the HUGE number of commuters and you can start to see the problem....

I laugh every time I hear people come out to Warren county and act like they're in the boonies. These people apparently don't know what "boonies" are and think they've gotten there just because they can go a couple miles between traffic lights or shopping malls. You'd think they were in Montana.

Montana's boring.

Except for skiing.

Anyone that doesn't agree that NJ is largely urban and that there is any significant rural area left hasn't travelled much outside of the eastern seaboard. Having seen what "rural" really is, I would say Morris, Union, Essex, Hudson, Bergen, Somerset, Middlsex, and good portions of several other counties are "urban".

I guess the Ramapo Mountain Reservation is just a smaller strip mall?

West milford may be just hustling and bustling!!


BTW, "Urban" means CITY, as in Hoboken, Jersey City, Patterson, Newark, Trenton, Downtown Monclaire even!!! What you are describing is Suburban.

Add to that the Trenton area, Camden area, much of the shore, AC, etc. The only parts of the state that are truly rural, in the sense that "rural" is defined everywhere else more than an hoiur or two from NYC, are the northwestern half of Sussex, extreme NW Warren, the pine barrens, and some farming areas down south. And the rest of the state not described above is what most from places other than NJ would call "suburban".

There is a LOT of farmland still out there, and the pine barrens aint small!

The Water Gap is also quite a big part of land. They aren't exactly the wilderness, but you know what I am saying.

Lets not get caught up on %%s

It is true that a few plces in extreme NW NJ and southern NJ can still legitimately be called farming areas, although even then these areas are in many cases largely bedroom communities that have managed to retain significant ag acreage.
[SIZE=3] [/SIZE]

Bedroom communities? You mean they don't sleep out in the field like true farmers?

I do admit that I miss even the smaller farms that the NE used to have.

THANK YOU HOUSING BUBBLE!!!!!!

[Phillip S1]

Taxes are very high. It's expensive to live in NJ. Otherwise, one of the best states to live in, and great schools, jobs, industries, malls etc.!

[NJ Bear]

"What you are describing is Suburban."

Yes, by NYC metro area standards. But these are the same people who think anywhere west of Morristown is the styx. They only seem suburban in thsi region due to teh proximity to one of largest urban centers on the planet. These places USED to be suburban. Now you can't even tell when you go from one to the other because the houses, condos, apartments, strip malls, gas stations, and convenience stores never stop. Sure, technically they are "suburbs" of NYC. But in terms of development, population density- they're mostly urban.

25-30 years ago I would agree that most of Morris, Somerset, etc. were suburban, but not so much now. Then again, 25-30 years ago most of Warren and Sussex were rural...

As for roads, spend some time driving around anywhere north of Newburgh and not on the interstate in March or April, then go back again in July. Then you'll understand what I'm talking about. Roads get WRECKED, but they fix them. Often the "fix" is much more than just patching potholes. In NJ you see the same potholes month after month, year after year.

As for $ and snow removal, yes it's obviously about money. My point exactly. Instead of spending money to keep roads safe and passable, the money that should go to that is used for other "special projects". Also the comment about it being faster not to plow is totally false, optimal speed for spreading salt is 35 mph and there's no reason on main highways that you can't plow at that speed. Just for comaprison, NYSDOT has plows specifcally intended to plow at around 50 mph. That' s not too say -all- NYSDOT plows, or that they always plow that fast... just to say that yes, you can plow at the same speed you'd spread at. NJDOT also has trucks outfitted with wings so they can clear a wider swath in one pass. The only time I've ever actually seen the wing mounted on an NJDOT truck, though, was one time benching back a high snowbank. They could use them every storm to plow more efficiently, but choose not to. Better to run more trucks and/or have it take longer, I guess? Meanwhile all that steel that the taxpayers bought (i.e., the wings and the wing hoists and hydrualics on the trucks) sits idle.

[angerinthenation]

Originally Posted by stevemorse

its sour grapes. They really miss NJ but cant afford it so they bash it. No its not bad at all. Its great. Hows living with those NC hillbillies and Nascar crap, beats that anyday!

What are you talking about buddy? There's plenty of people from Jersey that act like hillbillies and are into Nascar too. Believe it or not. They have the country accent and everything and they're straight out of Jersey. Smh.

Jersey is okay but personally from me, there's NOTHING to do. You're better off living in New York or elsewhere because there's nothing here to do. It's boring. Almost all the people that say there's nothing wrong with Jersey are, of course, born and raised in New Jersey so they're going to show their Jersey pride and paint pictures that don't exist. I spend more time on my computer than going out because of that. It is limited out here.