Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Perhaps, or perhaps the supplier couldn't care less.
If the supplier can get away with giving the gas station a lower markup per gallon of gas, why would they not care about that ?
You appear to be arguing that labor costs do not have any impact on prices (or at least, that they do not have any impact unless they are born by the party who sets the price).
Quote:
Either way you will have a hard time convincing me that they will be passing on any savings to the consumer.
If labor costs go down, then the either
(1) the gas stations make more money (due to lower labor costs),
(2) the suppliers make more money due to giving the gas stations a low margin,
(3) the consumer gets lower prices
I made an argument elsewhere in this thread why (2) will not happen. (1) won't happen because the gas stations will pocket it if they can. That leaves (3).
Quote:
At one time, all states had only full serve. Now, the states I have travelled and lived hardly have any full service pumps, and the ones that ARE there are a lot more money than the self service pumps.
There's a reason for this though: these full service pumps are qualitatively different to the ones in NJ in that they are a kind of "specialty market". They charge more because buyers are willing to pay for that service.
Ironically, in NJ, you get lower prices by imposing the costs of the service that you want on people who do not want that service. Obviously, this is more efficient -- for you, because you can get other people to create an economy of scale for specialty services that you're interested in.
If you are suggesting a vote on whether or not to allow the choice of full service gas stations, I would have no problem with that. In fact, I would welcome it.
How about submitting all purchasing decisions that we might want to make, to a democratic vote ?
How about submitting all purchasing decisions that we might want to make, to a democratic vote ?
When it comes to LAWS involving "purchasing decisions", sure. Absolutely. I am all for local government carrying out the will of the people. Again, if you don't like the way one state does business, there are 49 other states to choose from.
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that even if the majority proved to be in favor of the current law, you would still be against it?
There are infinite laws that stand in the way of a free market. Should we repeal them all? When the firemen come to your burning house and ask for 50K to put it out, will you feel the same way?
When your cardiologist demands as much to stop your heart attack, will you feel the same way.
How come you chose to make your free market capitalism argument on the back of the gas station industry?
Should we repeal all laws that hinder free market capitalism, or just the full service requirement?
Um...the refineries were there before the Turnpike existed....
And if people see that very short stretch of NJ as representing the entire state, well, that doesn't say much for them, now, does it?
Yeah but it's so true...even a lot of well-educated, rational people really, really, really think that that is all NJ offers...refineries and smokestacks. I hear this almost every single day...it is really sad actually, and the perception will probably never change.
The State of NJ needs to hire an amazing PR agency to launch a huge campaign, or something.
When it comes to LAWS involving "purchasing decisions", sure. Absolutely. I am all for local government carrying out the will of the people. Again, if you don't like the way one state does business, there are 49 other states to choose from.
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that even if the majority proved to be in favor of the current law, you would still be against it?
There are infinite laws that stand in the way of a free market. Should we repeal them all? When the firemen come to your burning house and ask for 50K to put it out, will you feel the same way?
When your cardiologist demands as much to stop your heart attack, will you feel the same way.
How come you chose to make your free market capitalism argument on the back of the gas station industry?
Should we repeal all laws that hinder free market capitalism, or just the full service requirement?
Then it seems to me that you are opposed to free markets.
There are two scenarios where the voluntary, bilaterally informed free market transactions run into substantial problems. In these cases, there are good cases to be made for regulation, intervention, or government run services.
neighborhood effects : third parties are economically impacted by the transaction) and
natural monopolies : duplication of infrastructure introduces substantial inefficiency.
In the examples you offer:
(1) the firemen: there is widespread agreement that this is a "natural monopoly". If it wasn't a natural monopoly, it still wouldn't be run on a fees to service model; people would buy insurance to avoid being at risk of paying 50k.
(2) the cardiologist and emergency care: many believe that this falls under one or both of the above categories, though this is a contentious and contested claim.
I think it would be difficult to make a compelling case for "natural monopoly" or "neighborhood effect" in the case of gas prices.
Your argument, as I understand it, is that reduced costs would not be passed on to the consumer.
If this is true, then why is it the case that prices at the pump go down when the underlying commodity prices drop ?
Why do they go up on RUMOR that the commodity prices go up?
Why do they not MATCH the price differences? If they were tied in oso closely, why when Oil went from $140 a barrel (and $4 a gallon) to $35 a barrel did gas prices take so long to follow AND not follow quite as much?
I will tell you. Because they knew they could do it. they were riding the wave of acceptance . Whatever the people would put up with on the rate of price rollbacks befiore they started REALLY demanding somethnig to be done.
They soaked us for all we were worth, and still are now! ($2.50 for gas when Oil prices are half what they were at $4 a gallon? What gives?)
Quote:
The fact that gas prices do drop with commodity prices undermines the contention that gas prices are "sticky", as your thesis seems to imply.
Is there are reason that one type of cost would be passed onto the consumer, whereas another type would not ?
No, there isn't. Your example was a poor one that illustrates the fact that these guys will get what they can out of us. The example of the "cash discount" is one of them. The stations did NOT lower their prices, but simply ADDED a fee for the credit cards.
As for the whole job scenario, that is a bit out there too. BK said it right. Most gas stations are just that now, with only one or two workers there full time at any given time. They have a convenience mart, no real garage anymore, and one person pumping gas and never offering any "service". To think that this guy earning $nada an hour would save you money on gas if he were removed is bupkis.
You think that he would be fired? You think the one guy working the station would now not be needed since it was self-serve?
Gas stations have turned into ATM's. You can never get a teller when you need them, if you have any problems or questions, you have to find one that still has an office and go there during working hours (Yay vacation time!!!!).
As for somethnig that would make NJ stink? If this is a major concern for you, you really need to see a therapist. How many pages have we spent talking about this now?
Why do they go up on RUMOR that the commodity prices go up?
Why do they not MATCH the price differences? If they were tied in oso closely, why when Oil went from $140 a barrel (and $4 a gallon) to $35 a barrel did gas prices take so long to follow AND not follow quite as much?
Lots of possible reasons. As I posted previously, costs are complex, and your analysis is too simplistic. One example of why they could have gone up, is that they could have reflected movements in futures prices rather than spot prices. There are a number of reasons this could happen.
Quote:
No, there isn't. Your example was a poor one that illustrates the fact that these guys will get what they can out of us. The example of the "cash discount" is one of them. The stations did NOT lower their prices, but simply ADDED a fee for the credit cards.
Please read some economics -- a rudimentary understanding of economics is the best cure for a belief in socialist / marxist rhetoric. I already explained why this argument is too simplistic in this thread.
Quote:
As for somethnig that would make NJ stink? If this is a major concern for you, you really need to see a therapist. How many pages have we spent talking about this now?
I have no idea what this is about. I never posted anything about NJ "stinking". Maybe you have mistaken me for someone else ?
Lots of possible reasons. As I posted previously, costs are complex, and your analysis is too simplistic. One example of why they could have gone up, is that they could have reflected movements in futures prices rather than spot prices. There are a number of reasons this could happen.
I would bet money it isn't that complicated.
When it comes down to it, the nature of commodities brokering is not to get what your assets are worth, but what someone is willing to pay for them.
Same thing here. The gas in the tanks underground is no more expensive than when they bought it, but yet the prices go up as soon as the oil prices do? No. It don't work that way. This gas should be seen as a staple for industrial living, not as a commodity like Gold, where the price moves regarless of the cost to obtain it.
Quote:
Please read some economics -- a rudimentary understanding of economics is the best cure for a belief in socialist / marxist rhetoric. I already explained why this argument is too simplistic in this thread.
Here we go. You going to site Hitler next? You explained it, but incorrectly. I do not feel you gave a valid response and I agree with the original poster. When stations were allowed to charge for something, they did. If they were allowed to charge for service, they will.
It costs them less money to let people pump gas themselves, and they are not going to GIVE us that money if they don't have to. What are we going to do? Go somewhere else? NJ is already the cheapest!
Quote:
I have no idea what this is about. I never posted anything about NJ "stinking". Maybe you have mistaken me for someone else ?
Um, what is the title of the thread?
"Is NJ really that horrible?"
Hmm, Horrible could mean that it stinks, it sucks, it is lousy. Little bit of an ego thing there Elfie? Sometimes some comments are not 100% about you. ESPECIALLY when the comments no longer directly address your quotes. I thought the 2-3 blank lines...TWICE, would have carried that across......
When it comes down to it, the nature of commodities brokering is not to get what your assets are worth, but what someone is willing to pay for them.
How do you define "what it is worth", if not by what the market will pay ?
Quote:
Same thing here. The gas in the tanks underground is no more expensive than when they bought it, but yet the prices go up as soon as the oil prices do? No. It don't work that way. This gas should be seen as a staple for industrial living, not as a commodity like Gold, where the price moves regarless of the cost to obtain it.
Supply and demand.
Quote:
Here we go. You going to site Hitler next? You explained it, but incorrectly. I do not feel you gave a valid response and I agree with the original poster. When stations were allowed to charge for something, they did. If they were allowed to charge for service, they will.
It costs them less money to let people pump gas themselves, and they are not going to GIVE us that money if they don't have to. What are we going to do? Go somewhere else? NJ is already the cheapest!
and learn how to spell "cite" while you're at it ...
There is a reason they can't arbitrarily jack up prices. Ultimately they are constrained by supply and demand even though they can temporarily make little grabs here and there. Sometimes transition in regulation etc creates a small window for gaming, but it doesn't trump the laws of economics.
Quote:
Um, what is the title of the thread?
"Is NJ really that horrible?"
That would make your post a response to the title of the thread. Doing is as a followup to a quoted post creates the impression that it's a response to the post quoted.
I know that.. I didn't say they shouldn't have them completely removed, I said putting them on one of the most well traveled roads in the biggest metro America is what gives NJ one of the worst stereotypes in The USA (the armpit of the country)
Wouldn't want my dad losing his job
I'm not an expert, and I really wasn't taking this all that serious like some people are taking it, but maybe a less popular area of North Jersey would of been a better spot.......or they should of stuffed in into Long Island, I mean NYC and their trash is in their state, not ours
Our trash is on Staten Island.
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.
Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
