South Orange vs. West Orange (Newark, Irvington: homes, neighborhoods, middle schools)

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

West Orange, "good" areas: 07052
West Orange, "bad" areas: 07052

The lower cost areas are Hazel and Washington. The other areas are Pleasantdale, Mount Pleasant, Redwood, Gregory and St Cloud (named after their elementary schools). Redwood and Mt Pleasant have some very upscale gated communities which tend to skew average prices in those neighborhoods.

The authoritative guide to the boundaries is the school district reference:

Transportation-Home

I sketched out a rough map of the different neighborhoods once upon a time. But generally the information is also implicitly included in GSMLS listings (e.g. the listings indicate which elementary school zone the house is located in)

Also, this realtor's blog is an excellent source on the market in WO

Bev and Bob Meaux’s Blog

Gregory: purple
St Cloud: green
Redwood: red
Hazel and Washington: pink
Pleasantdale: Dk blue
Mt Pleasant: Lt blue

Note : this is a very rough sketch to provide a rough mental image of where the neighborhoods are. It is very rough, there may be some slight errors, and a careful observer will notice that there are some areas that were left blank. For an authoritative guide to the boundaries, use the school zone directory, above. Some of the boundaries are a little tricky (e.g. on some parts of Gregory avenue, the west side of the street is in Gregory, but the east is in Hazel.)

You might also notice some peculiarities with the geography -- for example, Eagle Ridge (SE of prospect and 280) seems to be zoned for St Cloud even though it looks like it "should be" part of Mt Pleasant.

[FreshFresh]

Originally Posted by ansky

Main St. is considered the downtown area. The condo project has been put on hold.

I liked it when they had a Blimpie and Grocery store. Now they practically have nothing.

[nykstevenyg]

The problem with the downtown area is it sits right next to Orange. Who is going to pay top dollar for a condo with Orange as your backyard? Funding was cut off to the PRISM group and they wanted a town issued bond. Essentially taxpayers would be paying for the project and if it worked out the town would be paid back but if it didnt it would be a huge burden on the taxpayers. Unlike South Orange, Maplewood, Millburn, Westfield etc the downtown area is not the center of town for people in W.O. It is 1 little section nobody is in, though somethings needs to be done to improve it.

[CRDolan]

I would pick West Orange. South Orange's biggest challenge is its shared border with Newark. There are lots of issues with break-ins & safety issues walking or jogging at night. The SO police is as strict as can be. But there is just so much the police can do. During your orientation as a Seton Hall student, they really warn you on potential safety concerns. When you combine that with sky high taxes, South Orange is still a beatiful town but its not for everyone. The closer you are to Newark, you sense the stress of the homeowner in terms of always being on the lookout.

For many families with kids, you move out of the city to enjoy a more peaceful setting with little worry of crime. That's what your paying for. So with the expensive homes & high taxes, I personally don't think its a fit. The School system, especially the high school has really gone down compared to 20 years ago.

As for West Orange, its all about what neighborhod in West Orange. The least desirable parts are the ones closes to Orange. Again, you hear of break-ins of homes & auto. Jogging at night especially for women can be a concern in downtown. Note that West Orange has the 3rd highest car theft in Essex County.

The long term outlook for both West Orange & South Orange also has some uncertainty. iIn both towns, there has been a noticeable but consistent White Flight out of these towns. Just 15 years ago, both South Orange & West Orange were both about 84%-86% white. Both towns have a rapidly declining white population at 63% & 67% range. The public schools are also a potential issue. You will find many white catholic families & even some African-american families send their kids to private catholic schools.


Two close friend veteran realtors in the area say that there has been a steady, noticeable flow of white flight out of W.O & S.O. Not in alarming rates but significant enough for realtors to notice. For every 3 families that move out of W.O. , two are white. While for every 4 families who move into W.O., 2 are African-American & 1 is of another minority group.according to my realtor friend. So a potential inbalance is developing long term. The realtor said that the Massive Real Estate slowdown has also slowed down the white flight due to economic reasons & failing real estate values. But this may be temporary.

The possible advantage of S.O. is its train station & its wonderful area for dining & hanging out. Just like Montclair, it may attract young White New York families to move into town in order to replenish the critical racial balance that is needed.

With W.O. having no train station to NY, & no downtown like SO & Maplewood. no restaurants like Montclair- it may be tough to attract young families.

[elflord1973]

The term "white flight" is nearly always associated with the middle class abandoning the place, but I checked the census numbers fairly carefully and found little evidence of this. Not only has the median income steadily climbed in WO, each quantile has steadily increased over time.

So the racial demographics have changed, but the term "white flight" is very misleading here.

Regarding the long term outlook, the area up the slope whether in Montclair, South Orange or West Orange is always going to be very attractive -- the geography of the area makes it a magnet for upscale housing. Even after the supposed "crash", property values in SO and the nicer parts of WO and SO are holding up quite well.

[ansky]

Originally Posted by CRDolan

With W.O. having no train station to NY, & no downtown like SO & Maplewood. no restaurants like Montclair- it may be tough to attract young families.

I have not found that to be the case at all. On my street alone I would say about 50% of the residents have children age 10 or under, and several have moved in just this past year. In fact, my wife and I are a "young family" and we actually chose WO over SO because of WO's lower property taxes and home prices. So in a way it actually helps WO to attract young families. The property taxes alone will prevent an influx of lower income residents.

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by ansky

I have not found that to be the case at all. On my street alone I would say about 50% of the residents have children age 10 or under, and several have moved in just this past year. In fact, my wife and I are a "young family" and we actually chose WO over SO because of WO's lower property taxes and home prices. So in a way it actually helps WO to attract young families. The property taxes alone will prevent an influx of lower income residents.

I'm about to move there just after having my first child. We were pretty much priced out of SO -- I mean, we could have purchased a place in SO, but we could get a really nice place in WO. What area do you live in ? We're moving into Gregory.

[nykstevenyg]

I think in the 90s there was white flight out of the W.O and S.O. White flight meaning white people not the middle class. I do think this has stopped though. The hills and geography do make it a magnet for upscale housing. The high taxes which are annoying are helpful in keeping low income people out. As long as they can both attract young white families as a majority and attract middle and high income minority families they will both flourish.

[mumra]

I don't understand the the idea that high taxes keeps low income families out. For example Madison has lower taxes than WO so with that theory Madison should be over run with low income families.
Lower priced homes/rentals attract lower income buyers. Everyone agrees Hazel/Washingston Section of WO is less than stellar, do you think an affluent family would be interested in those areas? Also the higher than average foreclosure rate and the difficulty in selling bel air properties doesn't help at all.

However i wish you guys are right cause my parents still own there.

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by mumra

I don't understand the the idea that high taxes keeps low income families out. For example Madison has lower taxes than WO so with that theory Madison should be over run with low income families.

Lower priced homes/rentals attract lower income buyers. Everyone agrees Hazel/Washingston Section of WO is less than stellar, do you think an affluent family would be interested in those areas? Also the higher than average foreclosure rate and the difficulty in selling bel air properties doesn't help at all.

However i wish you guys are right cause my parents still own there.

Affordability is driven by both property tax and prices. A place where housing is expensive won't be overridden by low income earners. Low income earners aren't going to line up to buy houses where the monthly payment after property taxes is over 2000/month.

It is possible for housing to be taxed into oblivion -- the way that works is that places don't sell (because the people who can afford the taxes aren't interested in the area). There are some cute little cottages around Bay St Montclair listed at just over 200k -- but they won't even sell at that price, because property tax is 14k (substantially more than the mortgage). You can't give these places away.

Perhaps the same is happening in Hazel and Washington -- places aren't selling there. Making it difficult to move out will probably prevent a flood of low income people moving in ...