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View Poll Results: Do you have a security system?
yes 43 52.44%
no 39 47.56%
Voters: 82. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 08-20-2009, 12:52 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,390,964 times
Reputation: 601

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Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyshoes View Post
I read the thread, and I don't see the boogeyman stuff you are talking about.

I don't see the big deal with having an alarm system so I'm not quite sure I get it why it seems to annoy you that people have them.
I don't have a problem with people having alarm systems in general.

I think it's a fallacy to suggest that they make you substantially more safe though.

If I'm wrong, please correct me (and please do so by providing some factual evidence to support your position) -- what is your risk or your childs risk of fatality or serious injury caused by an intruder ? How does that compare for example, with their risk of the same from a household accident, automobile accident, or if they're older, a suicide ?
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Old 08-20-2009, 01:00 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,390,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AnesthesiaMD View Post
People aren't worried about "boogey men", so you can stop repeating the term over and over again. People are worried about burglars, who can be unpredictable enough as to be a possible danger to young children, especially if backed into a corner. If you have children, and there is an intruder in the house, you have to go under the assumption that they mean harm to your children until proven otherwise. Only an idiot would say "oh, Im sure these guys are just here to rob us. The kids are fine". As rare as this may be, if it were to happen, and a security system is something that you can easily afford, how would you, as a parent, ever be able to forgive yourself? Why would you NOT have one? I know several people who's houses were broken into in my town. I'm sure they wish they had alarms on at the time.
People are willing to accept a certain amount of risk in exchange for convenience. They make this tradeoff all the time by driving. It's possible to get by without a car, even in several of the decent suburban towns, yet many people drive and put their kids in the car.

In fact a majority, 80% of them do not correctly install their childs car seat. So not only do they take on risk, they aren't event terribly vigilant about minimizing something that is one of the leading risks to the personal safety of their children.

So again, why not ? Because people may find them inconvenient, and they cost money.
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Old 08-20-2009, 04:35 AM
 
312 posts, read 997,377 times
Reputation: 167
It only takes common sense to realize that alarm systems make you more safe. When the alarm goes up, everyone is woken up and the police are alerted. In my town the cops respond within minutes. Emily Smart's family had an alarm system but did not turn it on the night she was abducted. When she was missing I bet her parents regretted every single day that they did not turn on the alarm system that night.

What do car seats have to do with this conversation? Just because someone is concerned about their alarm does not mean they are gonna ignore their car seats. If anything, someone who is diligent about home safety is prob going to be diligent about car safety as well.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:23 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,390,964 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by artDDS View Post
It only takes common sense to realize that alarm systems make you more safe.
That's not responsive to my question, which is, how much more safe ? You could also try to minimize the risk of alien abduction, but even if you reduced the probability of that to exactly 0, the impact on your childs safety would be negligible.

Burglary related homicides are a small fraction of overall homicide numbers, which are again small in most "nice" towns.

Automobile safety does have everything to do with this conversation, because putting your child in an automobile at all puts them at risk. You could avoid risk of an auto accident entirely by never driving an auto with your child. Yet few people would consider this even though it is (unlike boogey man attacks) a major source of risk.
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:54 AM
 
1,235 posts, read 3,403,271 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
I don't have a problem with people having alarm systems in general.

I think it's a fallacy to suggest that they make you substantially more safe though.
I don't know how you'd measure that because you don't know which robbers skipped your house because they knew you had an alarm system?

Do you lock your doors? How do you know that actually helps? Why do you do it?
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Old 08-20-2009, 06:59 AM
 
312 posts, read 997,377 times
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elflord1973, quote your statistics to the Dr. William Petit who lived in a "nice" neighborhood in Connecticut whose house house was invaded in the night, his wife and 2 daughters raped killed and burned alive. Bad things happen in good neighborhoods. Dr. Petit did not lock his door that night and if he had an alarm system it was not armed. Sure the chances of a tragedy like this are small but please don't compare that to the chances of alien abduction. With my alarm system I sleep soundly at night. Is it 100% foolproof, no but it is way harder for someone to get into my house without me knowing than it would be if i had no alarm system. It takes one second to arm alarm system and does not impact my life at all other than the fact that it gives me greater sense of security. Not using a car to drive my kids would greatly impact my quality of life so of course I am going to use an automobile. That is really a silly comparison.
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:40 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,390,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by artDDS View Post
elflord1973, quote your statistics
to the Dr. William Petit who lived in a "nice" neighborhood in Connecticut whose house house was invaded in the night, his wife and 2 daughters raped killed and burned alive. Bad things happen in good neighborhoods. Dr. Petit did not lock his door that night and if he had an alarm system it was not armed.
First, this is not responsive to my argument (I'm interested in minimizing risk), not in irrational response to very scary anecdotes.

Second, the anecdote doesn't support your position, because he didn't lock his door, so your anecdote is arguably not even an example of a case where a good lock would have proven ineffective.

Suppose some other guy in his shoes didn't have an alarm system, but locked his door. Who would have ended up safer, the guy with the alarm system, or the guy without ?

Quote:
Sure the chances of a tragedy like this are small but please don't compare that to the chances of alien abduction.
Well, what are the chances of this happening, and what is your best estimate of the chance of alien abduction ? I'm not looking for emotive rhetoric here. If you're serious about minimizing risk, you need to start by identifying and neutralizing major threats.

It could well be the case that doing slightly less driving could more than trump the "safety" gains you discuss here. Even in your cherry-picked anecdote, it really isn't clear that the alarm would have added additional safety (actually, it's an instance where an alarm would not providing safety from the boogey man attack it's supposed to protect you from)

Quote:
Not using a car to drive my kids would greatly impact my quality of life so of course I am going to use an automobile. That is really a silly comparison.
What about driving them 10 less miles per week ? Or just driving them as little as possible without causing too much inconvenience ? Would that have a greater or lesser impact on their safety than the alarm system ?

I understand that you believe that driving an auto is an acceptable risk in terms of cost/benefit. But it's not true that an alarm system is completely free, so it's money that you're not spending on your quality of life (unless you count your piece of mind, but then if you don't have the same fear of boogey man attacks, then that's not an issue)

BTW, again, keep in mind that 80% don't even install their kids car seats correctly. Is everyone who is properly protected against boogey man attacks in the 20% who do ?

[edited, some corrections]

Last edited by elflord1973; 08-20-2009 at 07:55 AM..
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Old 08-20-2009, 07:45 AM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,390,964 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by luckyshoes View Post
I don't know how you'd measure that because you don't know which robbers skipped your house because they knew you had an alarm system?
Well, you could start by looking at what the risk is for people without alarm systems. As Art's anecdote illuminates, even having an alarm system does not completely eliminate the risk of homicide by an intruder, but I'm prepared to be generous and let you pretend that it does.

Quote:
Do you lock your doors? How do you know that actually helps? Why do you do it?
I lock them largely to protect my property. Risk of getting things stolen is pretty high. Risk of dying in a boogey man attack is close to 0.

Also to make my wife feel more comfortable. I don't think it substantially reduces my mortality risk.
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Old 08-20-2009, 09:22 AM
 
1,235 posts, read 3,403,271 times
Reputation: 273
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
Well, you could start by looking at what the risk is for people without alarm systems. As Art's anecdote illuminates, even having an alarm system does not completely eliminate the risk of homicide by an intruder, but I'm prepared to be generous and let you pretend that it does.



I lock them largely to protect my property. Risk of getting things stolen is pretty high. Risk of dying in a boogey man attack is close to 0.

Also to make my wife feel more comfortable. I don't think it substantially reduces my mortality risk.
Right, you lock your doors to protect your property and hopefully, as a deterrent against walking in on a robbery, or a robber mistaking your house as empty when it is not. These are the dangerous situations. In the end, who cares about stuff.

An alarm is just a fancy lock. A deterrent. Not a guarantee.
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Old 08-20-2009, 11:29 AM
 
Location: Coastal New Jersey
50,490 posts, read 49,845,932 times
Reputation: 58975
Quote:
Originally Posted by scottiemobes View Post
I think so many people have alarm systems in NJ because it is relatively easy to get around from points of urban failure. The desperation to leave certain places due to worsening conditions makes people do crazy things and commit crimes. Many of the people in the densely populated poorer areas simply believe there is no better option. Virtually all the what I describe as "mid-level" communities have public transit to and from these locales.
I think that's correct. I recently moved from Midland Park, which has a very low crime rate. That's probably because it is not adjacent to any major highway for getaway purposes. You have to drive through other towns to get to it. Usually burglaries are done by locals.

Last edited by Mightyqueen801; 08-20-2009 at 11:32 AM.. Reason: Extra word not needed
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