Are new Jersey property taxes High all around, do the wealthy pay the same rate as most jerseyans (Newark: home, buy)

[luckyshoes]

Re: "Keeping the bums out"

I think that is a rather unfair characterization.

Middle and upper class towns are already paying major bucks into the state to help fund the Abbott districts, on top of carrying the weight of our own towns in property taxes.

Check out this spreadsheet. Take Bergen County. Garfield City, an Abbott district, gets $11,000 per student from the state of NJ. There is a big drop from there, but still a wide variation in the rest of the towns, anything from a couple thousand to a lousy 400 bucks, all based on socioeconomic status.

2009-10 State Aid Summaries

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by luckyshoes

Re: "Keeping the bums out"

I think that is a rather unfair characterization.

Middle and upper class towns are already paying major bucks into the state to help fund the Abbott districts,

yes, give them money, but please keep them the hell out of our schools

BTW, the Abbot system is funded by your property taxes. It's funded by state taxes.

Also, the system isn't terribly popular in this forum, to put it mildly !

[AnesthesiaMD]

Originally Posted by luckyshoes

Does Alpine really have low taxes? Or is it just that the value of their houses are so high that their taxes look low when compared to other towns.

What's the difference?
If you pay X on a 2 million dollar home in montclair and you pay half X on a two million dollar home in Alpine, who cares if the nominal figure is a lot to someone who has a $300,000 house in another town?

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

It boils down to starting with, what services do you expect your town to provide, and how do you want your town to pay for them ?

The main reason property taxes are so high is that towns are expected to provide education. In my opinion, this is a silly quasi-feudal system based on a backward "keep the bums out" mindset, but it is what people here seem to want for the most part.

A truer post could not have been authored. Your ability to communicate this is much more eloquent, and shorter than what I could have written. But this is NJ in a nutshell, and you are right: it's what the majority of people want. People who pose as tolerant liberals but really want what's best for their kids, but prefer the price of exclusivity through higher property taxes, then use the angle of preferring the higher taxes as a liberal stance, when in reality, it is a conservative one.

[luckyshoes]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

yes, give them money, but please keep them the hell out of our schools

BTW, the Abbot system is funded by your property taxes. It's funded by state taxes.

Also, the system isn't terribly popular in this forum, to put it mildly !

Yes, I know that. That's exactly my point. We pay state taxes into all the Abbott districts and property taxes to keep our own schools going.

I just think to say that poor people are being treated unfairly in this state in terms of education is, well, a joke. The state aid numbers don't show that. In fact, if anyone is being treated unfairly, it's the middle class paying for everyone's education.

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by luckyshoes

Yes, I know that. That's exactly my point. We pay state taxes into all the Abbott districts and property taxes to keep our own schools going.

But that's not the same thing at all -- and putting it that way perpetuates the myth that the Abbott districts are the reason your property taxes are high (the real reasons are (1) the prevailing system is very inefficient, and (2) running a good school isn't terribly cheap if when you do administer it efficiently)

I just think to say that poor people are being treated unfairly in this state in terms of education is, well, a joke. The state aid numbers don't show that. In fact, if anyone is being treated unfairly, it's the middle class paying for everyone's education.

Well, how would you like it if your kids were in a failing school district (with or without Abbott funding), and you send them to a better one, because the people in the wealthy districts decide that based on the fact that you're in a poor district, your kids are "bums" who should be "kept out" ?

The amount of money that goes there is completely beside the point.

It's like having those kids stuck in a burning building, and you show your compassion by throwing water on the fire, while locking them in there (because you don't want them to get out)

A better solution would be to allow students to choose the schools, and also, if you're worried that your school will be swamped with hooligans, the way to address this is to also allow the schools to choose the students. You know, voluntary transactions and all that. Also, using vouchers to get rid of the "crowding out" effect (e.g. catholic schools are getting killed because parents can't afford to pay school fees twice over -- once to the school and once to the town) would help.

BTW, adding some choice to the system would create good incentives for students, administrators, parents, schools, and teachers -- which would do wonders to improve the property tax situation for the middle class.

But it would make it harder to keep non-white children out of your kids school (per "Urban Quest"'s thread ... ). Priorities, priorities.

[CaptainNJ]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

It's like having those kids stuck in a burning building, and you show your compassion by throwing water on the fire, while locking them in there (because you don't want them to get out)

i dont think that accurate. its not a burning building, its just a building in very bad shape. then you dont want them to go into your nice clean building that you care about maintaining, and turning it into the poorly maintained building that they came from.

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by CaptainNJ

i dont think that accurate. its not a burning building, its just a building in very bad shape. then you dont want them to go into your nice clean building that you care about maintaining, and turning it into the poorly maintained building that they came from.

Sure, keep those dirty bums out, right ?

[CaptainNJ]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

Sure, keep those dirty bums out, right ?

sometimes safeguarding your children's future means making choices that arent politically correct. so yes, keep those dirty bums out, .

[luckyshoes]

But that's not the same thing at all -- and putting it that way perpetuates the myth that the Abbott districts are the reason your property taxes are high (the real reasons are (1) the prevailing system is very inefficient, and (2) running a good school isn't terribly cheap if when you do administer it efficiently)

Yes, one of the reasons property taxes are as high as they are is because many towns get negligible state aid, in addition to the other reasons that you mention. This is compounded by also having to pay state income tax, some of which goes to the Abbott districts. So many families get screwed coming and going.

Well, how would you like it if your kids were in a failing school district (with or without Abbott funding), and you send them to a better one, because the people in the wealthy districts decide that based on the fact that you're in a poor district, your kids are "bums" who should be "kept out" ?

I don't make the rules. If NJ wanted to get rid of all these towns they could, a town does not have any right to exist, in the state constitution.

The amount of money that goes there is completely beside the point.
How is this besides the point?

It's like having those kids stuck in a burning building, and you show your compassion by throwing water on the fire, while locking them in there (because you don't want them to get out)

A better solution would be to allow students to choose the schools, and also, if you're worried that your school will be swamped with hooligans, the way to address this is to also allow the schools to choose the students. You know, voluntary transactions and all that. Also, using vouchers to get rid of the "crowding out" effect (e.g. catholic schools are getting killed because parents can't afford to pay school fees twice over -- once to the school and once to the town) would help.

I agree. I'm all for some sort of school choice including more charters. But you would have to eliminate home rule to get to open enrollment, which I think is what you are advocating. Many people don't want yet more of their money going into a unresponsive state government which appears to only care about the Abbotts when it comes to school funding. In fact, as much as they complain, many people feel better about it being spent and controlled locally. This is why home rule will never go away in NJ.