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Old 10-20-2009, 11:10 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,803,724 times
Reputation: 595

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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
You have the wrong party, the Dems are imploding the Blue Dogs don't want Cap and Tax, Public option, card check, the lefties want all of these things. The Dems control all levers of government but can't pass anything because they are at war with each other. Big gains for the Republicans in 2010.

Cheers!
This seems to be based more on optimistic cheer-leading than anything else. If anything that can be sold as "universal health care" passes, that will be a huge political victory for the Democrats.

The Republicans really aren't staking out a clear position now. They are really shooting themselves in the foot by opposing medicare cuts -- short sighted sniping in the day to day back-and-forth that is going to make their lives uncomfortable when they try to reduce spending.

The Obama administration has been awfully wishy-washy on domestic policy, but if they do absolutely nothing on domestic policy besides pass a health care bill (any health care bill), I don't like the Republicans chance of success.

On the other hand, if the dems don't get a health care bill, that will provide an opportunity for the Repulicans.
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Old 10-20-2009, 11:54 PM
 
1,645 posts, read 2,117,672 times
Reputation: 1303
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
So what's stopping you from moving???

NJ's "current state" must be pretty awesome because those of you who constantly complain about it don't seem to be moving out. If it's so bad here, then go right ahead and move to Pennsylvania. Funny how it's so easy for people to talk about how "bad" it is here but they never would actually ACT on it.

Long live liberalism! May it stomp out conservatism everywhere!
Even when it comes down to stomping out the church functions that you seemed to be so obsessed with? What a progressive you are, Johnny boy.

On a side note, your entire line of argument is exactly what is wrong with not just NJ, but the U.S. Ignorant people who can stand and watch while their society crumbles around them, cover their eyes, and scream "If you don't like it, there's the door!" to anyone interested in positive change. If NJ doesn't vote for common sense sometime soon, it will eventually go down in flames and people can thank the BergenCountyJohnny's and all other mouthpieces for the unions.
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Old 10-21-2009, 06:24 AM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 9,501,331 times
Reputation: 3106
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
This seems to be based more on optimistic cheer-leading than anything else. If anything that can be sold as "universal health care" passes, that will be a huge political victory for the Democrats.

The Republicans really aren't staking out a clear position now. They are really shooting themselves in the foot by opposing medicare cuts -- short sighted sniping in the day to day back-and-forth that is going to make their lives uncomfortable when they try to reduce spending.

The Obama administration has been awfully wishy-washy on domestic policy, but if they do absolutely nothing on domestic policy besides pass a health care bill (any health care bill), I don't like the Republicans chance of success.

On the other hand, if the dems don't get a health care bill, that will provide an opportunity for the Repulicans.

I hope most dems hold your position Republicans will continue to lead Dems in generic congressional polls. The Dems have the majority and can't pass anything. The Republicans have a very clear position, Tort reform, selling insurance across boarders, taxing gold plated benefits etc. The media prefers not to report the positions and the electorate is too laxy to look it up.
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Old 10-21-2009, 08:40 AM
 
Location: Home
1,479 posts, read 1,888,929 times
Reputation: 600
sb, did you read what I said?

The Dems can't pass anything because they are not as unified in mesage. They represent more than the, forgive teh reference, Gestapo like uniformity that the GOP took on shortly after the 2000 election.

I remember McCain running then and I really LIKED him. I also liked his candid no-BS commentary on that campaign when he was on the air with The Daily Show. It seemed like he would stand up for what he believed in.

But as time wore on, between 2001, the Iraq War and other events, 2004 and then 2008 saw a completely different man. He seemed to be hugging the people he frowned at not too long before. He seemed trapped at first, then crushed into a vanilla pudding pop mold later on with a generic "family values" and a "you betcha" running mate.

He knew most of it was BS, but he also knew his ties, connections, and the future of his party rested on solidaruty.

Unfortunately, keeping together as a cohesive unit only works when you focus on keeping a solid base. Now they have lost their base and have been trying to court a rather radical fringe of the right and it just is not working. You canot please ALL radicals.

But in keeping with their solidarity, they are not willing to try and construct something feasable. They call out Medical Malpractice as the major expense in the industry and call fo reform, but THAT only accounts for a small portion of the overall cost and HAS been going down (despite the highly publicised news stories we heare now and again).

They call the government program "socialized medicine" as if the evil specter of Socialism will raise its head and ruin all hopes of freedom in the US. They decry thnigs like taxes, and pledge to lower them, but have spent more than any other administration before them with nothing to actually cover it. Spending on Debt is great, but I really do not like THAT bubble.

They are willing to refuse any bill merely because a Dem has backed it. Even a Blue Dog Dem. That is not working things out. That is partisan BS and it has to stop.

The Dems may need more solidarity, but the Repubs need to can this blind cementaceous unity and start thinking for themselves, for their people, and for the US (WITHOUT waving a flag around and having a country music singer spoting the Star Spangled Banner or "Proud to be an American").
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:35 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 5,107,325 times
Reputation: 2532
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeradoDan View Post
I just don't get why you can't be angry at the system as it is and want to change it. Isn't "moving out" just a wimpy way out? Some people love this state and want to change it for the better so it can be an affordable place to raise a family as it once was. Moving out is giving up on a place you love, rather than fighting to change it.
Why can't I "be angry"? There's nothing to be especially angry about. There are things that are wrong, things I don't agree with, but there's nothing that's worth "getting angry" about. Even the corruption - it's not like you will ever eliminate corruption, the best we can do is hope to keep on top of it enough to bust it where it becomes too much of a problem. There is corruption in every facet of life, so to single out politics as an area where it can somehow be eliminated is a farce. It's funny how people cry "corruption" most when it's not their party who is in charge.

I agree with you that moving out of NJ might be "just a wimpy way out", but if you don't love the state, you are a wimp who should move out anyway. If you love the state and want to change things, that's good; people like that should stay and work at changes. But when people say stupid things and bash the state, they don't love the state. They love themselves and they're bashing the state because they didn't get their way. A person who loves the state doesn't make up lies about a "meltdown", or say that this state is "ruined". That's what haters and bashers say.

So, love it or leave it. There's a way to disagree with things that are being done without hating the state. If someone can't do that, then he should leave. If one is going to sit there and talk about how much better another state is, then the person should go there.

You, Dan, are one of the very, very few conservatives on this forum who seems to be able to criticize NJ without bashing it, although I think sometimes you feel like you have to side with the bashers. I appreciate your views and your opinions because you have a good attitude and clearly love NJ, from what I've seen. Even if we will never agree, at least I'm open to discussion with you. But I'm not going to waste my time with the haters and bashers who are talking about "escaping" and how the state is ruined and in a meltdown and how it's better elsewhere.

You yourself were able to talk about moving to Florida in a way that did not put down NJ, but rather as way for you to benefit yourself. I have no problem with that; that's natural. But it's bashing when people talk about how this state is "unaffordable" yet they continue to live here, collecting that fat salary from their job which pays higher than it would elsewhere, paying the higher costs to stay here...it's hypocrisy. They say they're suffering and abused; so why stay? Leave. If NJ sucks, then leave. If Tennessee is better, go there. What's stopping them? If NJ is ruined and too "liberal", find a red state, there are more of them out there than blue states.

Quote:
Originally Posted by VeradoDan View Post
And while some people probably DON'T do anything but complain online, others do. I've attended many meetings of state and local government and I have won a couple of battles, albeit very small ones. How do you know some of the people on here aren't involved in trying to change things for the better? The one thing we do know is that the current path of this state is unsustainable as a decent place for a middle class family to live and raise their children. And I think that's pretty sad.
I believe that YOU DO make an effort to change things for the better as you see it. I don't believe that the others who are always bashing NJ, talking about how they can't wait to leave or "escape" (as if they're being held here against their will ) and how NJ is so horrible. Those people are miserable whiners, and I'm sure they do nothing but whine.

As for "the one thing we do know is that the current path of this state is unsustainable as a decent place for a middle class family to live and raise their children", I don't agree with that. I appreciate that that's how you see it, and that's your opinion, but I don't see that as being factual. What I will say is that it is clear that as the state grows, the "middle class" areas are changing, and this is the same everywhere. As the population grows, a nice, middle class town that was once out-of-the-way becomes more desirable due to sprawl. The housing values go up, the cost of living goes up, and the middle class starts to become displaced by a higher class of people.

When I was a kid, my town and most of the Pascack Valley was considered "country" by a lot of people. There were people in my town (including my neighbors) who kept chickens. It was a nice middle class town. Transit to NYC was infrequent, but it grew as time went on. Today, the middle class element is being displaced by wealthier classes. This also brought more business, some corporations, etc. and the towns here grew more. Executives who made a lot of money settled here and built big homes in newly developed neighborhoods.

I had a friend, when I was a kid, who lived in Ringwood. That was considered the country and a home there was dirt cheap because nobody wanted to live way out there. Now that other towns are more crowded, it is more desirable. Also, it's no longer considered "way out there" because it's close enough to jobs and other conveniences today.

It's called "change". For better and for worse, it happens.

What is it you expect the government to do differently to let the middle class go on living in the same towns, decade after decade, at the same costs??? Put a cap on housing costs??? Eliminate taxes? How much tax do you want to eliminate and how much will it affect the quality of life for people in those towns???

I don't see how you can expect a state with the highest incomes and the highest home prices to NOT have the highest taxes going along with it, PARTICULARLY because the Federal Government takes money from us (close to half our federal taxes) and re-distributes it to the poorer Republican Red States. Do you think Republican NJ Senators are going to stand up to the majority of the Republicans in Congress and demand they change that? Heck, the Democrats aren't even doing that, much less the completely partisan Republicans. The last NJ Senator to broach this topic was Sen. Bill Bradley.

So yeah, NJ, Love it or Leave it. Just don't bash it.
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Old 10-21-2009, 04:39 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 5,107,325 times
Reputation: 2532
Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
Even when it comes down to stomping out the church functions that you seemed to be so obsessed with? What a progressive you are, Johnny boy.
What are you talking about? What "church functions" have been stomped out???

Quote:
Originally Posted by ReluctantGardenStater View Post
On a side note, your entire line of argument is exactly what is wrong with not just NJ, but the U.S. Ignorant people who can stand and watch while their society crumbles around them, cover their eyes, and scream "If you don't like it, there's the door!" to anyone interested in positive change. If NJ doesn't vote for common sense sometime soon, it will eventually go down in flames and people can thank the BergenCountyJohnny's and all other mouthpieces for the unions.
I vote for common sense every time I vote, because I'm not a Republican or a conservative who blindly votes as he's told by the radio.
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Old 10-21-2009, 09:44 PM
 
Location: Ocean County
1,057 posts, read 523,276 times
Reputation: 326
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ninjahedge View Post
The Dems may need more solidarity, but the Repubs need to can this blind cementaceous unity and start thinking for themselves, for their people, and for the US (WITHOUT waving a flag around and having a country music singer spoting the Star Spangled Banner or "Proud to be an American").
On the other hand, a little flag-waving and patriotism wouldn't hurt the Democrats, who seem to care more about the rights of the terrorists held at GTMO and the comfort of terrorists abroad than our own national security and the mission of our soldiers who are risking our lives for Obama's "war of necessity" in Afghanistan that seems to be turning out worse than Iraq ever did.
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Old 10-21-2009, 10:32 PM
 
Location: Summit, NJ
1,126 posts, read 669,483 times
Reputation: 450
I agree that the dems could be more unified and define what they're doing more clearly. And Obama should be leading the way. I think Obama is highly intelligent in a way that Bush never was, and Obama's intelligence means that he sees how complicated everything is, but when it comes to practically getting things done, he (and his people) need to bracket that complexity off and act expediently. (Clinton, who I like less than Obama, had this same problem for similar reasons--especially in the first half of his first term).

The Bush administration, I believe, got things done at first (especially after 9/11) precisely because of Bush's lack of curiousity. His people could act decisively because they didn't have a lot of questions about policy implications coming from their boss.

I think this analysis is somewhat sound whether you are liberal or conservative. The thing I found so offensive about Bush--aside from obvious ideological issues--was his woeful lack of interest in the world. I would have been much happier with a Rep. Pres. who actually appeared to care about the enormity of his job.
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Old 10-22-2009, 08:15 AM
 
Location: Home
1,479 posts, read 1,888,929 times
Reputation: 600
Quote:
Originally Posted by VeradoDan View Post
On the other hand, a little flag-waving and patriotism wouldn't hurt the Democrats, who seem to care more about the rights of the terrorists held at GTMO and the comfort of terrorists abroad than our own national security and the mission of our soldiers who are risking our lives for Obama's "war of necessity" in Afghanistan that seems to be turning out worse than Iraq ever did.
What about the guys that were NOT terrorists and just picked up without enough proof to convict?

Are we right to model our incarceration program after counties like China and Russia? Whose flag would you be waving?


As for Afghanistan, why are you blaming Obama for a war he did not start? WE went in there, WE deposed the reigning leadership and WE set up the Heroin capital of the world.

Many other nations have tried to conquer Afghanistan, but being a dirt poor mountainous nation, it is VERY difficult to get people to a point where they can police themselves and become a viable productive nation on teh world stage.

If we had not gone to Iraq, maye we could have use those 150 THOUSAND troops to do something a bit better in Afghanistan by now. 20K in a country like that doesn't do much.
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Old 10-22-2009, 11:25 AM
 
5,973 posts, read 3,683,748 times
Reputation: 1614
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
You mean Jon Corzine, a vote for Daggett is a vote for Corzine.
A vote for Daggett is a vote for Daggett. As a voter one is not obligated to only vote for Democrats or Republicans. Independants have won elections before. Both parties are a failure and should not be supported or believed.
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