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New Jersey's public schools are good, but I've never believed the hype that they are so head-and-shoulders above everywhere else. If you go to an upper middle class suburb in any state, you'll find similar graduation rates and overall success. There is nothing magic in New Jersey textbooks that makes our kids so much smarter. There's just an overall higher incidence of parents having degrees and putting an emphasis on education here.
For the most part, this whole thing about New Jersey schools being amazingly superior to every other state's smells of an NJEA press release to cull more money from our wallets under the guise that "it's for the kids."
For the most part, this whole thing about New Jersey schools being amazingly superior to every other state's smells of an NJEA press release to cull more money from our wallets under the guise that "it's for the kids."
Spoken like a true republican.
No doubt the NJEA has a grip on the state (I'll never deny that), but the facts remain. We are paying a tremendous amount for quality education in NJ. One of the best is not even remotely a far fetched concept.
It is, in fact, one of the best....................
On the flip side, we throw a large sum of money at our school systems in New Jersey. It is what it is.
What characterizes a quality education, is it the pedigree of the teachers, the performance criteria established by the NJEA, curriculum, the national or state ranking of schools?
As for money buying a quality education please explain the dollar amount needed to purchase each element that constitutes a 'quality education"?
Could it be the government mandate to require children to attend school needs to be updated and clarified? If there were two school systems, one for children and one for animals in the guise of children, the focus on mandatory education could be meted out in good focused social faith for both categories. The current socio-governmental need to sacrifice the many for the sake of the few has to be meted out judiciously as opposed to being a default practice for all bureaucratic ramblings justified by the great imaginary legal slippery slope.
Amazing that the bastion of the educational system, the NJEA, finds it impossible to use performance evaluations for teachers as does the rest of the working world.
Tenure should join blood letting on a dusty museum shelf where mainstream therapeutic remedies of the past centuries can still live on. If indeed tenure is needed to overcome biased political prejudice on the part of school administrators then tenure is a big red arrow on our educational compass that points the way to the first major problem that needs to be addressed.
We can still have good public schools without the NJEA monopoly. We can still fund our schools properly, without the NJEA monopoly.
It's fascinating to me how many citizens stick up for the NJEA. The NJEA exists to protect their members' interests, as they should, they are a union. They do not exist out of some benevolence towards children, although they've done a fantastic PR job of convincing many parents of that.
Quote:
Amazing that the bastion of the educational system, the NJEA, finds it impossible to use performance evaluations for teachers as does the rest of the working world.
Tenure should join blood letting on a dusty museum shelf where mainstream therapeutic remedies of the past centuries can still live on. If indeed tenure is needed to overcome biased political prejudice on the part of school administrators then tenure is a big red arrow on our educational compass that points the way to the first major problem that needs to be addressed.
I couldn't agree more with these two previous comments.
No doubt the NJEA has a grip on the state (I'll never deny that), but the facts remain. We are paying a tremendous amount for quality education in NJ. One of the best is not even remotely a far fetched concept.
It is, in fact, one of the best....................
On the flip side, we throw a large sum of money at our school systems in New Jersey. It is what it is.
You are exactly right openheads. Nobody even brought up NJEA till the republican brought it up. They have to make everything political to spin their propaganda. NJ has the best schools, nobody is saying that is from NJEA, we all know we all pay high taxes that get poured into the school so of course it is likely we get the best schools, whether there is an NJEA or not, who is to say that if there is no NJEA that we wouldn't still have the best schools and still dump money into them more than others?
So yeah this was about NJ's schools being so good and the fact is we throw tons of money at them, nobody mentioned NJEA but of course leave it to a Republican to be like "Oh what a good spot to spin my conservative talk radio agenda, I will bring up the NJEA so I can bash them!" Just pathetic.
You are exactly right openheads. Nobody even brought up NJEA till the republican brought it up. They have to make everything political to spin their propaganda. NJ has the best schools, nobody is saying that is from NJEA, we all know we all pay high taxes that get poured into the school so of course it is likely we get the best schools, whether there is an NJEA or not, who is to say that if there is no NJEA that we wouldn't still have the best schools and still dump money into them more than others?
So yeah this was about NJ's schools being so good and the fact is we throw tons of money at them, nobody mentioned NJEA but of course leave it to a Republican to be like "Oh what a good spot to spin my conservative talk radio agenda, I will bring up the NJEA so I can bash them!" Just pathetic.
My point was that the money you spend on your school districts is outrageous, and you'd get the same test results and quality education if the teachers paid into a 401K and contributed to their health benefits like everyone else in America. Your kids get absolutely ZERO benefit from a very big chunk of what you pay in school taxes every year. My whole point is that given the same parents, the same textbooks and the same curriculum, the students will score just as well even if we slashed budgets. School performance is about values and a willingness to learn more than the tenured NJEA member at the front of the classroom.
Last night I went to a board meeting in my town where they approved a number of "professional development" days off for people, one of which was a five-day trip (including airfare) to Myrtle Beach in January for a teacher. Another was a trip for an Assistant Superintendent to London. It's for the kids, right?
People, People- I hate getting into politically related debates because I consider it a never ending cycle. One that leads often times to irrational behavior, judgement based purely on emotions, and very dangerous to many who unconsciously have the herd mentality.
That's probably why I've almost always supported the Independent candidate whenever possible. Neither party has all the correct answers & both parties are right on some issues but also very wrong on others. ei
The problem here is many people succumb into the trap of " LOOKING AT THE WORLD from a viewpoint that EVERYTHING is & has to be Republican vs. Democrat, Conservative vs. Liberal, Right vs. Left. Its a false and very misleading way to keep viewing the real world.
Why?
Because in the real world, majority of happenings, decisions, events, solutions, problems are NEITHER a CAUSE or EFFECT of being a Liberal vs. a Conservative, Democrat vs. Republican.
The biggest problem here is so many buy into that us vs. them, blue vs. red, liberal vs. conservative crap. Politicians, Lobbyist, Powerful Corporations with hidden intentions, big bucks writers, & radio jocks who make millions of dollars - ALL these entities use their powerful propaganda in order to recruit unsuspecting people to FIGHT FOR THEIR CAUSE!
This education thread has turned into that pretty quickly. Some here talk & bash based on what they hear, or what their neighbor said. Some here just keep repeating claims that they hear from someone they read about or heard about in the radio. Some here join the bandwagon that is promoted by some million dollar political marketers thru radio.
People- you sometimes have to step back & use your god given talent. Look at the source of what you hear, then, analyze it clearly. You cannot keep chewing & digesting everything you hear just because that person is a democrat or a republican. Just because someone in your political spectrum said something- that never ever means its true or accurate.
Let me leave you with this. Something to think about rather than getting your facts from Aunt Helen the homemaker, Neighbor Paul , Cousin Vinnie, Republican candidate Larry, Democratic candidate Jim, Liberal friend Judy, Conservative friend George, blah blah blah
See in my two decades as a CPA/Financial Advisor serving primarily a base of affluent clients who have a minimum net worths, one thing most of them have in common is the fact that........ they became wealthy & highly successful because they did not allow false political & false financial crap to influence their mindset. They may respectfully listen to Aunt Pattie the conservative, Uncle Tom the liberal, candidate Rick the conservative, candidate Doug the liberal- BUT a Clear majority of my successful clients would NEVER allow themselves to just buy from one side of the propaganda machine. THEY CLEARLY UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE MANY ISSUES THAT REPUBLICANS ARE CORRECT BUT THEIR ARE ALSO A TON OF ISSUES THAT REPUBLICANS SIMPLY SUCK. THE SAME IS FOR DEMOCRATS. THEY UNDERSTAND THE THERE ARE ISSUES THAT LIBERALS ARE ACCURATE BUT THERE ARE MANY ISSUES THAT DEMOCRATS SCREW-UP.
What's the Point ? No one Idealogy, No one Political party has all the right answers
i get your point 100% Mikecp. I believe you are alluding to some of the misguided bashing of NJ teachers & the teachers union.
as a former teacher & now a busines owner for the last 10 years, I am seen & lived in both worlds. As a republican and an active member of the NJ Chamber of Commerce, i see a glimpse of both
i agree with you. There are many parents who very easily fall for the "Anti-Teacher, Anti-Teachers Union" Mantra that is always sold by some politicians in my very own republican party. most never bother to stop, think, and make a decision based on facts, results,data. Many parents, particularly republican leaning parents just assume that all that is said by their politician is from the bible.
this is too long a topic to discuss. let me throw in what many in the " the teacher & their union is the Devil" group should think, think & think again. Things that their political representative will never bother to tell you. although i doubt they even really understand.
'
There are about 4 major independent national orgs that follow & rank public school systems in all 50 states. this does not include media ranking outlets like Newsweek & the Wall Street Journal rankings.
1) In all these rankings since 1992, the State of New Jersey has always consistently been ranked anywhere from 1st to 7th among all 50 states in the last 16 years. In the last 5 years, NJ Public schools have placed around 4th & 6th among all states. These rankings are based on the Key Major indicators of:
% of state teachers with Phd's, Avg. % of experienced teachers, % of teachers with national award recognition, national testings SAT's, Graduation rates, Acceptance into most competitive 1st tier colleges, # AP & Honors courses offered, performance on AP national testing, progressive scores of special ed class, # of special ed classes among them.
2) NJ has the 3rd Highest Number of Public School Teachers holding a Phd
Very Important: MA, NH, VT,Maine, NY,CA,CT & VA are the other highest number of PHD's year after year. Now the kicker, All these states including NJ are the same states that do the best in rankings by all these orgs. These states produce the highest acceptances in top schools, the highest average national testings.E
3) The nation's highest paid teachers are in no order MA,NH,NJ,NY,CA,VA,ME,CT.
Again, the highest paid teaching states are all the same states that have done very well.
( why you asked? Because NJ & all these other states Attract the Best Teachers to their state because of the High Salary. You Get what you pay for.
4) There has always been a direct result of a country's educational achievement to the Pay of its teachers. The US today ( for the last 12 years) has gone down in terms of educational ranking compared to other European, Asian, & North American countries. You get what you pay for.
Right now, multiple countries like France, Germany , Switzerland, Canada pay their teachers more than the U.S. Guess what? These same countries have produced outstanding educational results.
We are the Only Industrial country TODAY that I know of where about 30% to 35% of its citizens bashed and attack their teachers for being paid too much. While 50 years ago, virtually the entire nation had the mentality that teachers should get paid more.
What's the result of all this bashing ? Not only has our educational rankings gone down internationally, but it disturbingly discourages millions of young people from becoming teachers because of the negativity promulgated by this 35% of the population. we have a shortgage of teachers today. We have had to recruit non-american teachers to make up for it. While this is transforming at alarming rates, we have this segment of the population who wants to downgrade, reduce pay of teachers.
What's very telling here is a study conducted by Fairleigh Dickinson Univ 4 years ago. It shows a clear disconnect in mentality towards education based on a Two part study.
NJ parents who attack our educational system & complain about teachers pay & teachers union are likely to:
1) 96% of these parents send their children to the Free NJ Public schools
2) 89% of these parents do not hold a bachelors degree
3) 82% of these parents plan to have their children attend a state university, a state college, or a community college if their children pursue college
4) 91% of them have never considered sending their children to private or acatholic schools
5) 89% of these parents live in suburban or rural NJ
6) Politically: 69% of parents who think Teachers are getting paid too much are self indentified Republicans. 19% self Indentified as Independents, 7% Democrats,
Now what's the flipside:
1) NJ Parents who send their children to private school were asked about paying for schooling:
92% said that money was an issue but they were willing to invest in their child's education
2) 77% plan to definitely send their children to a Private College/University
19% plan to send them to a State College/University
3) 28% of the private school respondents have NJ household incomes of $80K or below. But they still are willing to pay for private schooling
4) 17% of the respondents for the private school study live in an urban area.
What was the take on all this?
Parents who are paying taxes, but also come up with money to send their kids to non-public schools are not complaining.
Parents who pay taxes and are getting a Free Public school education from a perennial national ranked school system are COMPLAINING about cost.
Personally, its a very telling study. Its a mindset. Its not even a republican or conservative mindset. Its more of a blue collar mindset that does not put High quality education, high quality teachers as its family's priority.
I hate to say this as an Italian-american but its a mindset that is Totally 100% opposite of how these Asian-American and Jewish-American parents think. Then, you scratch your head on why they is a disproportionate success among these ethnic groups.
Asians kids, regardless if its the poor ,very little english Vietnames kid from Jersey city, or this new working class immigrant from india living in elizabeth to this wealthy chinese kid living in short hills- Its success everywhere! Its a mentality of " Whatever it takes, Education comes first"
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