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Old 01-15-2010, 09:44 PM
 
259 posts, read 595,286 times
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Tenure protects good teachers more than it protects bad teachers. Tenure is earned not given.

 
Old 01-15-2010, 09:46 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,101,821 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
I do not expect public schools to produce the same results as private schools. I expect teachers in public schools to be subject to the same measures of job performance that everyone else in the world is. And I expect teachers to give up tenure, as it is a tool of enshrinement of the obsolete, the ineffective, and the incompetent.
OK.....since you want teacher performance to be measured specifically in comparison to everyone else in the world I'm sure you must have a plan for that.....please tell us your plan and how your would specifically evaluate each teacher based upon the student make up of their particular class and the economic conditions of the school district ?
 
Old 01-15-2010, 09:54 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,101,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
Namely, single parent households. Single parent households are responsible for so many problems I can't even begin, it would never end.
Ahhhhhh....single parent households are the problem.....responsible single moms whose husbands cheated and took off or responsible single dads whose wifes cheated and took off are the problem......or a single grandparent whos children wern't responsible or on crack or in jail and they now have custody are the problem ? Are you serious ?
 
Old 01-15-2010, 09:56 PM
 
593 posts, read 1,394,929 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
No, but that is irrelevant to judging the current state of disrepair in the education establishment, which is self-evident to even the most casual observer.
Yes, it is relevant. Some people like yourself have a big misconception about private schools. I can tell you as somebody who spent 9 years in one that it isn't what you guys think it is. Just because Chris Christie had a great experience at Seton Hall Prep doesn't mean he can speak for all the other people that also had a private school education. Seton Hall Prep is one of those wealthy, wealthy schools. You have to be really rich or have a scholarship to get into somewhere like that. Not every private school is like Seton Hall Prep. There are private schools that are worse than the most dreaded public school. At least the public school gives everybody opportunities to shine in different aspects whether it is through academics or sports. Can't say the same thing for private school.

At least public schools allow the kids to grow as adults. Can't say the same thing for private school or at least the one I went to. No extracurricular programs such as art classes, drama and theater, sports, no after school programs, none of that. I feel that I was robbed of my foundation years just because my parents didn't have enough money to send me to blank private school. They had to settle for a cheap one that didn't have anything to offer. See, I could have been an artist because I drew a lot back then as well as could have been a track star if I were at a public school but my private school didn't feel that giving kids activities to help them grow as people would mean anything. They felt that discipline and scaring the kids by yelling at them when they did simple infractions such as not picking up the pen the same time as everybody in class did or having different color socks that wasn't apart of the uniform was more important. Look at us now. Some people came out well, others didn't. Me, I came out okay but I'm still affected by my Catholic school experience. By the time I went to a public school, I was washed up. I didn't know how to take advantage of the opportunities the public school gave me until it was too late. I could have been on the track team. I could have went to the gym everyday since it was free. I could have been a straight A student and gone off to this college. I could have excelled in something and been better with myself but I was stuck in my private school mentality so I had to do a little readjusting. So leave the public school system alone. That's something we actually need.

Last edited by angerinthenation; 01-15-2010 at 10:12 PM..
 
Old 01-15-2010, 10:00 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,101,821 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Marc Paolella View Post
We need objective measurements. The best solution would be an outside entity either from the state itself or a subcontractor.
So....we need more government help in overseeing education......objective measures..... like when George Bush gave us "No child left behind"......???
 
Old 01-15-2010, 10:53 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,408,669 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan View Post
We're not talking about bankers or programmers here.......please stay on topic.....
It is absolutely on topic. What makes teachers fundamentally different in a way that makes it impossible to evaluate their performance ? You don't need to understand the details of evaluating performance to understand that it is possible to do so.

Quote:
the question posed....which you avoided....is what is your basis that you determine a bad teacher that needs to be fired ?
I could propose several, but that's somewhat beside the point -- it's a question better left to education experts.

Off the top of my head, here are a few:

(1) student improvement (not just their test scores, the point is that you compare their percentile on exit with their percentile going in)

(2) peer review and performance evaluations. This is good enough to weed out the really bad teachers.

(3) student evaluations (e.g. evaluations written by the students) (this is also one way to flag really bad teachers)
 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:06 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,408,669 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubz View Post
Tenure protects good teachers more than it protects bad teachers.
It provides all teachers who have it with job security.

Like most aspects of contracts negotiated by unions, it removes incentives to perform by ensuring that whether a tenured teacher performs has no consequences for the teacher in terms of compensation or continued employment.

So whether a teacher is "good" or "bad" prior to receiving tenure, they have less extrinsic motivation after receiving tenure. It is possible that some have such an outstanding level of self-motivation that this loss of external motivation doesn't hurt their performance, or that other external factors prove sufficient (e.g. concern for their professional reputation, etc).

However, as socialist experiment after socialist experiment demonstrates, when you remove accountability from the system, you inevitably end up with "social loafing" on a large scale and the overall results are poor.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:14 PM
 
259 posts, read 595,286 times
Reputation: 56
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
It is absolutely on topic. What makes teachers fundamentally different in a way that makes it impossible to evaluate their performance ? You don't need to understand the details of evaluating performance to understand that it is possible to do so.



I could propose several, but that's somewhat beside the point -- it's a question better left to education experts.

Off the top of my head, here are a few:

(1) student improvement (not just their test scores, the point is that you compare their percentile on exit with their percentile going in)

(2) peer review and performance evaluations. This is good enough to weed out the really bad teachers.

(3) student evaluations (e.g. evaluations written by the students) (this is also one way to flag really bad teachers)

they already do all of that, exit tests, peer reviews etc....

if you guys are going to hammer teachers, at least have a clue about it. The way you people act in this thread, you would think that NJ has the lowest testing scores and graduation rates in the country.

Theres a reason why NJ certified teachers can go anywhere else in the country and work as a teacher with no new certifications needed. They are considered over qualified compared to teachers of other states.

There are marginal or below average workers in all walks of life whether it be unions or people protected by who they know in the private sector. New teachers make a tad bit more than new hires that pass civil service exams and land decent state jobs. Most of these people never even walked on a college campus, some of them only have a GED. So you tell me teachers are overpaid? Right...College graduates with at least double BAs plus Masters degrees getting paid 51k after 4 years is being overpaid? BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAH
*gasp*

BWAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAH
 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:16 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,408,669 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubz View Post
teachers being overpaid = lulz

get a clue Marc, because it's obvious your head is so far up your know what.
This has nothing to do with "blaming" or bashing teachers or claiming they are overpaid. Teacher salary is only a modest percentage of total education spending. The problem is that the system is hopelessly inefficient, and the lack of accountability tends to make money vanish.

Quote:
The average starting salary for a teacher in NJ is what 40K.
Hardly comparable to what their private sector counterparts that have comparable BA or Masters degrees.
Then why are you so resistant to compensation that is more like that in the private sector ? I agree that some teachers would have higher starting salaries. Compensation would be based primarily on performance as opposed to marking time.
 
Old 01-15-2010, 11:21 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,408,669 times
Reputation: 601
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chubz View Post
they already do all of that, exit tests, peer reviews etc....

if you guys are going to hammer teachers, at least have a clue about it.
Hey, I "had a clue". "Flyers Fan" argued that you can't measure teacher performance, I pointed out that you can, and offered some examples.

Since they can measure performance, it's not a stretch that they can also tie compensation to performance.

Quote:
The way you people act in this thread, you would think that NJ has the lowest testing scores and graduation rates in the country.
It has the highest property taxes in the country.

Quote:
Right...College graduates with at least double BAs plus Masters degrees getting paid 51k after 4 years is being overpaid?
Who is arguing that teachers are overpaid ? I'm not.
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