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Old 01-16-2010, 01:30 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 5,407,909 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bababua View Post
I love this argument because all the bashers make is seems as if MOST teachers cant teach. The reality is a few cant.
My argument is not that most can't, it's that those that can't should step aside and be replaced by someone who can.

 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:00 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,100,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
First off, the table I looked at did not indicate years of service. Second simply lasting 20 years doesn't entitle anyone to anything, excellence does. If you look at the state of the Hoboken school system you would see we are not getting excellence. So on the whole the teachers in the Hoboken school system are are over paid.


For the record I do not hate teachers nor do I envy their salaries as I make far more than they do.
You do realize that teachers do not decide whats taught.....they follow orders from above........if your school system isn't "excellent" you need to look at whos in charge.....not the teachers.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:06 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
The educational system in this country is in abysmal shape and the teachers and their unions are in large measure to blame.
Teachers and their unions have little to do with how the program is run....sure their unions fight for better benifits as would be expected but the unions don't create the curriculum or any of the other programs......that all comes from above.....all the way up to George Bush and his no child left behind program which is a failure but still mandated. Teachers are an easy target but they didn't create this mess, they only work in it trying to accomplish what they can within a broken system.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:10 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 15,744,870 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan View Post
You do realize that teachers do not decide whats taught.....they follow orders from above........if your school system isn't "excellent" you need to look at whos in charge.....not the teachers.

I don't think curriculum is the problem. The problem is the incentives for the teachers. If great teachers and poor teachers are all rewarded the same. Why would poor teachers put in the effort to improve?
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:13 PM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,151 posts, read 10,875,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan View Post
You do realize that teachers do not decide whats taught.....they follow orders from above........if your school system isn't "excellent" you need to look at whos in charge.....not the teachers.
That's not entirely true. There is a great variance in the effectiveness of teachers all using the same program, curriculum, and syllabus. Fact of the matter is, some teachers are very good, most are good, and some are poor. Any parent who has had kids go through any school understands that.

Of course, school districts and administrators need to be checked too, and I happen to believe they are much more at fault for the waste and overspending in our schools than the teachers are. Even if we keep the current pay structure for teachers, I believe that we can save HUGE amounts of money by getting rid of much of that administrative fat.

Last edited by Bill Keegan; 01-16-2010 at 02:15 PM.. Reason: typos
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:19 PM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,151 posts, read 10,875,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan View Post
.....all the way up to George Bush and his no child left behind program which is a failure but still mandated.
What's wrong with creating measurable standards for accheivement and then asking that they be met?
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:21 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,100,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
I don't think curriculum is the problem. The problem is the incentives for the teachers. If great teachers and poor teachers are all rewarded the same. Why would poor teachers put in the effort to improve?

That sounds great on paper but how do you determine a good teacher on a comparison basis....bottom line is you can't. You can't compare all 3rd grade teachers in a school, or 2nd or whatever.....they all have different students.......some have very low IQs that you'll never make much progress with......some are "inclusion" students that have specific learning disabilities....some have behavior problems and are on medication......some have family problems at home....the list goes on and on so that its impossible to expect all teachers of a certain grade to be compared by the results of their particular class against other teachers of the same grade. Unless you've taught or have a family member that teaches those who look in from the outside will just never understand.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:24 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,100,995 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Keegan View Post
What's wrong with creating measurable standards for acheivement and then asking that they be met?
Standards are great to strive for but to expect ALL students to master those standards as if they were all physically and mentally equal is just impossible. Do you really expect a student with an IQ of 70 to achieve at the same level of a student with an IQ over 100.....how about a student who lives with his mom who is on crack.....or the student who sees hi dad beat his mom every night.....or the student in the low income family who goes to bed and comes to school hungary......how about the student who needs medication to focus but his parents don't give it to him because they take it and use it themselves......its impossible to expect all students to be equal and to expect all teachers to accomplish the same results.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:33 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 15,744,870 times
Reputation: 3123
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan View Post
That sounds great on paper but how do you determine a good teacher on a comparison basis....bottom line is you can't. You can't compare all 3rd grade teachers in a school, or 2nd or whatever.....they all have different students.......some have very low IQs that you'll never make much progress with......some are "inclusion" students that have specific learning disabilities....some have behavior problems and are on medication......some have family problems at home....the list goes on and on so that its impossible to expect all teachers of a certain grade to be compared by the results of their particular class against other teachers of the same grade. Unless you've taught or have a family member that teaches those who look in from the outside will just never understand.


Sure you can measure the success of a given teacher there are all sorts of metrics that could be applied to do this.

By the way I married into a family of teachers.
 
Old 01-16-2010, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Martinsville, NJ
6,151 posts, read 10,875,993 times
Reputation: 3935
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan View Post
Standards are great to strive for but to expect ALL students to master those standards as if they were all physically and mentally equal is just impossible. Do you really expect s student with an IQ of 70 to acheive at the same level of a student with an IQ over 100 ?
No I don't, and neither do the schools nor does NCLB. Trying to say that it does marks you as either intentionally deceptive or ignorant of the demands made by NCLB.
NCLB demands that each school district improve each year, and that all students are proficient at their grade level in reading and math by 2014. Nowhere and in no way does it demand that all students perform at the same level.

I happen to think that the failing of NCLB is that, at least in the sort term, so much effort is being put into ensuring that the underperforming students get up to proficiency levels, the upper tier students, those who score very well, and are significantly more proficient than their peers, are ignored, instead of being challenged.
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