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Old 01-15-2010, 04:56 AM
 
9,125 posts, read 22,814,548 times
Reputation: 3314
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post
Makes no sense. According to stats, New Jersey is experiencing out-migration, especially of better educated people. Those fewer moving in are new immigrants - poorer.
Anthony- stop coming in here and presenting facts- it upsets them and destroys their fantasy.....
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Manahawkin, Barnegat, Little Egg Harbor, Tuckerton, Northern Atlantic County, Waretown
6 posts, read 14,289 times
Reputation: 10
New Jersey has a lot to offer...the shore and its position between New York and Philadelphia. Then too you're just a few hours from DC.

New Jersey property taxes pay for education, that's not the case in most states. Until there is meaningful property tax reform, we'll be paying high taxes!

What no one else has mentioned is that New Jersey has some of the highest paid professionals in the country paying those high taxes!
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:46 AM
 
9,125 posts, read 22,814,548 times
Reputation: 3314
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraG at the Shore View Post

What no one else has mentioned is that New Jersey has some of the highest paid professionals in the country paying those high taxes!
Yes, and it also has plenty of non-highly paid folks struggling to pay those taxes. Remember- for every high-salary Wall Street broker, there's a garbage collector, hair stylist, waitress, etc., who isn't pulling down 6 figures (OK, maybe the garbage collector is).
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Old 01-15-2010, 05:57 AM
 
Location: NJ
151 posts, read 23,520 times
Reputation: 50
Quote:
Originally Posted by LauraG at the Shore View Post
New Jersey has a lot to offer...the shore and its position between New York and Philadelphia. Then too you're just a few hours from DC.

New Jersey property taxes pay for education, that's not the case in most states. Until there is meaningful property tax reform, we'll be paying high taxes!

What no one else has mentioned is that New Jersey has some of the highest paid professionals in the country paying those high taxes!
EXACTLY! #1 in taxes, #1 in salaries
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Old 01-15-2010, 06:49 AM
 
Location: NJ
7,043 posts, read 3,850,515 times
Reputation: 4574
Default NJ -it's worth the money?????????????????

The simple answer is "Yes, NJ is worth the money." The longer answer is "New Jersey is worth the money to a large majority of people, but there is a small minority of people for whom NJ is not worth the money, and that minority of people would be happier elsewhere."

Perhaps NJ is overpriced unnecessarily and that fact is irrelevant to some big money residents.

For the rest of us, a take in the chops, attitude from the seller gets our dander up. The price being paid is based on what the market will tolerate rather than what the item is actually worth.

We are paying ransom rather than true market value.

We can still value NJ but never assume NJ residents are stupid enough to be fleeced with a smile..... or that cashing the check relinquishes all rights to further legal or monetary claims.

If you choose to stay you do no one a favor by taking it with a smile.

Nj welcomes criticism from all quarters especially from former residents and even non-residents who never set foot in NJ. Without these wake up calls Nj will continue to fester as a feeding trough for a corrupt and inept state and municipal government that takes no notice of the residents financial plight.

Only a career politician covering for an administration would admonish criticism and present a single faceted sugar coated view while drawing a line in the sand to falsely distinguish the patriots from the treasonous.
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Old 01-15-2010, 08:31 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 4,836,492 times
Reputation: 2513
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
There are more steers alive (many which will end up being served alongside McNuggets) than there are vacant lots. Even those vacant lots are quite expensive -- again, because there is only so much land that is zoned for low density housing.
So now we're talking land? Land supply is not elastic, it is a straight line - demand more sharply drives price in regards to land. Housing can be considered elastic as long as it can be built. Earlier you mentioned housing, now it's land. More housing does not always require more land, as in the case of apartments, high-rises...

Yes, land and vacant lots are limited supply.

And I don't know where you get your data on steers. Furthermore, we don't know that all steers alive are options for slaughter. Furthermore, there is only so much tenderloin available in each steer.

Bottom line - the high taxes in NJ are paid every day by residents who choose to spend their money here, to stay here and live here. Therefore, NJ is "worth the money".
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:01 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 4,836,492 times
Reputation: 2513
Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post
Makes no sense. According to stats, New Jersey is experiencing out-migration, especially of better educated people. Those fewer moving in are new immigrants - poorer.
N.J. finishes fourth-worst in out-migration survey - NJBIZ.com
N.J. finishes fourth-worst in out-migration survey
This is natural in a state that is saturated. It's no more surprising than learning that a sponge which is soaked might lose a few drops due to being oversaturated - it doesn't mean the sponge has no liquid in it, but just the opposite, the sponge is too full.

Your link only talks about out-migration - it doesn't provide any backing for your speculation that the out-migration is comprised of "better educated people". My speculation is that the out-migration is mostly uneducated people who don't have good jobs in NJ and can't afford to stay. If you look at all the whining posts in this thread, the whining is about "waaah, nj is too expensive, we're being squeezed out, can't afford it, waahhhhh". So obviously it's the low-earners. Let them move to Georgia and North Carolina where they can be the big fish in those tiny ponds. That's fine. A state like NJ needs times of purging the dead weight.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post
House prices have been dropping in NJ and are still doing so. Plus foreclosures are up, so maybe people want to be here but can't actually afford it.

N.J.'s median income down ,214, biggest drop in nation | Economy | NewJerseyNewsroom.com -- Your State. Your News.
New Jersey's median household income declined by $7,214 between 2006 and 2008, the largest dollar decrease in the nation, according to newly-released U.S. Census Bureau statistics
Housing prices have been dropping across the nation, it is not a problem for NJ but for every state. Of course, a New Jersey-basher and hater will present NJ's falling home prices as being a NJ problem instead of the national problem that it is.

Housing prices are still higher here in NJ than in crappy dumps that people move to, such as Atlanta, North Carolina, etc. People who prefer McNuggets can go feast on the McNugget housing in those places. They will feel like the 5-year-old with the bigger order of McNuggets, like the king of the McDonald's playroom. That's good, let them enjoy! Meanwhile, other people are paying serious money for filet mignon up here in NJ, buying homes with an actually good location.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post
Finally, moving takes time. People don't like to turn their lives completely upside down, it's hard and scary, especially with families, kids, spouses who would both have to find new jobs. Most people will put up with a lot, hoping it will change, rather than make a wrenching move that they may find isn't ideal. Plus, in this economy, most people are holding on to the jobs they have, and staying near support systems, just in case.
Right, moving is SO "hard and scary", such a trauma!!! Of course when you're trying to prove that people are leaving NJ, moving is not a problem for those people - they eagerly flee the state for greener pastures. But when it suits the jersey-basher's argument, moving is near impossible and ever so traumatic, destroying childhoods and ripping families apart, such "wrenching" moves!!!

Well that's some good drama, maybe throw in some wagon trains and stories about attacks by indians and horse rustlers along the way. The fact is that people move every day, many of them with families and with kids, when the motivation is right. That motivation can be a carrot or a stick. If the "stick" of unbearable taxation were real, it would be enough to drive people out; instead, they choose to stay and pay. Even a lot of the whiners, they whine and whine but their action of choosing to stay here tells the REAL story that they believe it's worth the money to stay.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AnthonyB View Post
None of this suggests that either people can afford NJ (for much longer certainly) or that they are staying put (if they are) because it is "worth it".
None of what you posted really proves anything. It's a lot of partial fact that you present as backing for your speculation, but it changes when convenient (e.g. speculation that people are fleeing the state but when it's convenient the speculation changes to people are unable to flee the state - it's self-contradictory).

Bottom line is that New Jerseyans are choosing to live here and choosing to pay the costs to live here. That's the plain and simple fact.
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Old 01-15-2010, 09:08 AM
 
Location: 38 38' 45" N, -90 20' 08" W
7,646 posts, read 10,954,588 times
Reputation: 6167
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
This is natural in a state that is saturated. It's no more surprising than learning that a sponge which is soaked might lose a few drops due to being oversaturated - it doesn't mean the sponge has no liquid in it, but just the opposite, the sponge is too full.
This particular report contained in the link cites an unfriendly business climate:

"New Jersey has a history of performing poorly in such reports, with many in the business community citing its unfriendly business climate for the out-migration problems."

What this translates to, at least to me, is that Trenton is legislating policy that is inherently anti-business. Perhaps it makes more sense than the saturation theory. After all, the other business unfriendly states, Ohio, California, New York, all have a net move deficit, and these states have a fraction of NJ's population density. It would seem to me (and this is heavily suppressed by those who sympathize with the left-wing in this country) that business climate is a bigger factor when it comes to what states are gaining versus losing population.
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:04 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 4,836,492 times
Reputation: 2513
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
This particular report contained in the link cites an unfriendly business climate:

"New Jersey has a history of performing poorly in such reports, with many in the business community citing its unfriendly business climate for the out-migration problems."
Wrong. This particular report cites "many in the business community" (whoever that might be) as citing an "unfriendly business climate". In other words, they could have asked 5 people who don't know how to run a business and are bitter and blaming it on Trenton. We don't know who they're talking about because they only cite it as hearsay from a vague, unknown "many in the business climate" where "many" is very vague, being a relative term.

Of course they get their facts about out-migration of people from a highly scientific and reliable source - Allied Van Lines, the moving company, one of many serving the state. I wonder if they get their info for articles on beef sales from Burger King, or their info for articles on paper clip sales from Office Depot?? lol

But, of course, that statement in that article about NJ being unfriendly for business, scant and brief and vague as it is, constitutes concrete PROOF that "Trenton is legislating policy that is inherently anti-business" to the New Jersey-hating out-of-staters.

Of course, many of them should worry about their own states which are far, far more messed up than NJ, such as having no good education anywhere in the state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mike0421 View Post
What this translates to, at least to me, is that Trenton is legislating policy that is inherently anti-business. Perhaps it makes more sense than the saturation theory. After all, the other business unfriendly states, Ohio, California, New York, all have a net move deficit, and these states have a fraction of NJ's population density. It would seem to me (and this is heavily suppressed by those who sympathize with the left-wing in this country) that business climate is a bigger factor when it comes to what states are gaining versus losing population.
Please don't derail this thread by using it as a soapbox for preaching "evil liberals" political ideologies. There is a politics forum for that.

Why not ask Merck, Pfizer, AT&T, Mercedes, BMW, Hertz, Verizon, Nabisco, Johnson & Johnson, or any of the other long-time NJ businesses if NJ is "anti-business".

As for out-migration, it's only very recently that the hick states like Georgia and North Carolina started to offer business incentives, and now that they are filling up, they are becoming less business-friendly, along with rising crime, home prices, and taxes. And still they lack the major business presence that NJ has.

Furthermore people who leave NJ mostly leave for the other evil "left-wing" states that are supposedly "anti-business" - NY and California. More people left NJ for NY than for NC and GA combined.

And very few leave here to go to New Mexico, because NM has no schools that are worth anything - they got an F in education. How much more anti-business can a state be than to say to business, "Hey business, we value your presence here in our state SO little that we're not even going to educate our kids, because we don't care if you can't find people here who are smart enough to do the jobs in your company; in fact, if you're a tech or cutting edge company, try California or Texas, because here in NM we're only going to be business friendly to companies who need large numbers of uneducated people, since that's what we want our population to be, as evidenced by our woefully inadequate schools, from the lowliest Native American Reservation schools on up to UNM, we have the worst schools!"

At least NJ offers businesses the most educated population and the promise of future generations of educated people, and that is far more business-friendly than a little tax-break carrot that lures them in and then disappears in a few years...
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Old 01-15-2010, 10:19 AM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,789 posts, read 9,626,181 times
Reputation: 2110
[quote=AnthonyB;12454054]Makes no sense. According to stats, New Jersey is experiencing out-migration, especially of better educated people. Those fewer moving in are new immigrants - poorer.
N.J. finishes fourth-worst in out-migration survey - NJBIZ.com
N.J. finishes fourth-worst in out-migration survey..


where did you read this? There is nothing about WHO moves in or out in that link
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