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I will say it again: I have been to other states, and nowhere else I have been to are people as loud, rude, and IN YOUR FACE as they are in Jersey. I too, as I have said before, am fine with people being different from I am, it's the whole "stare at you like you're nuts when you are not exactly like they are" attitude in Jersey that I can't stand. Even in New Hampshire, a pretty conservative state, I don't get the same attitude from people as I get in NJ. I am not the only one saying it either:
I've been to a lot more other states and have spent much more time working and living in those other states and believe me, with my much greater experience, people are essentially the same, everywhere. I don't care what a British tabloid says, and the study sounds flawed to me, anyway.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
As I said before, I am fine with being alright with people who are different from I am and may be more conservative, but a tango takes two. The way Jersey people shun anyone who is not the same Yankees loving big conventional family person watching the Sopranos who spent their youthful years fist pumpin' at the shore, it kind of reminds me of the Amish shunning people who do "the devil's work".
I understand what you're saying. You're OK with people being different as long as it's not a "different" that you don't like. Like sports fans, guidos, Amish, soccer moms, etc.
That attitude of "being alright with people who are different from I am" except when they're soccer moms, jerks, guidos, Yankee fans, etc. and being very in-your-face about it on this forum reminds me of a line from Austin Powers, where Austin Powers' father says,
"There are two kinds of people I can't stand: People who are intolerant of those from other cultures, and the Dutch."
Just tweak that a little bit...
"There are two kinds of people I can't stand: People who are intolerant of those from other cultures, and the New Jerseyans."
That sums up the attitude.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
In Vermont, New Hampshire, Texas, and Maine, I NEVER saw that kind of overwhelming "we" mentality as there is in Jersey.
Vermont is a state that puts out bumper stickers saying "Don't Jersey Vermont", meaning don't let NJ people take over Vermont with their many "ways". If that isn't intolerant, neurotic, insular behavior I don't know what is. For all the intolerance you claim there is in NJ, I never see people go to the length of printing xenophobic bumper stickers the way Vermonters do. Texas?? Are you kidding? I've spent a LOT of time in Texas and they are one of the most intolerant of "alternative lifestyles". In Texas, people with a particular "alternative lifestyle" will look down on people with the same alternative lifestyle! I had it happen - a divorced woman I worked with in Frisco (Dallas) looked down on another divorced woman for being divorced!
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Actually, as I have said, I have lived in Jersey my whole life and moved around the state a bit. Also, there are several other posters on this very thread who agree with what I am saying and I have gotten a couple private messages from people telling me that they have noticed the same thing.
There are lots of people who believe a lot of stereotypes, that's not surprising. Many people are ignorant enough to blindly follow stereotypes. Many people also never mature past high school cliquishness and take their "downtrodden nerd" mentality into adulthood where they continue to bemoan their inferior status at the hands of the "jocks" and "preps" and "guidos" etc., but the cliques (as they see it) have changed to include new cliques like "soccer moms".
Of course, there are those of us who have grown well past that and are able to relate to others in a real way and not worry about superficial nonsense like who is a soccer mom, guido, etc. Honestly - who the hell cares??
Perhaps if there is one "alternative lifestyle" that people in New Jersey do seem to be intolerant of, it is that of the whining complainer. And that's a good thing, we should be intolerant of them, so they will hurry up and leave.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
ISomeone saying that "people in Jersey are no ruder than they are anywhere else" is kind of like someone saying "there are no more black people in Kenya as there are in Norway"
I've been to a lot more other states and have spent much more time working and living in those other states and believe me, with my much greater experience, people are essentially the same, everywhere. I don't care what a British tabloid says, and the study sounds flawed to me, anyway.
So The Daily Telegraph, one of Britain's largest newspapers owned in part by the same people as the Chicage Times, is a tabloid and Cambridge sociologists have no idea what they are talking about? Okay...
And again, saying "people are the same everywhere" is simply untrue. I can tell you from experience that just going to Vermont or Maine or New Hampshire or Canada, people are different in different locations. America is really a bunch of small countries, with different lifestyles and cultures, in one Union:
As I said, maybe three times, you can find people of a same type everywhere, but just as their are a higher concentration of certain kinds of people in different areas. One can find vein, fashion crazed materialist with way to much bootox anywhere, but are you really going to tell me Beverely Hills has the same concentration of them as Bangor, Maine? Or that there are just as many conservative, family minded people in San Francisco as their are in rural Arkansas?
If everything was the same wherever you go, than why the heck is there even a website called "city-DATA!?"
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I understand what you're saying. You're OK with people being different as long as it's not a "different" that you don't like. Like sports fans, guidos, Amish, soccer moms, etc.
That attitude of "being alright with people who are different from I am" except when they're soccer moms, jerks, guidos, Yankee fans, etc. and being very in-your-face about it on this forum reminds me of a line from Austin Powers, where Austin Powers' father says,
"There are two kinds of people I can't stand: People who are intolerant of those from other cultures, and the Dutch."
Just tweak that a little bit...
"There are two kinds of people I can't stand: People who are intolerant of those from other cultures, and the New Jerseyans."
That sums up the attitude.
Again, for the fourth time I think, A TANGO TAKES TWO. I am fine with people from all walks of life as long as they are fine with me. It is, however, kind of hard to deal with people who have no interest in dealing with you just because you are different from them. The way the "Jersey Shore" crowd treats everyone who isn't exactly like them or the way the general population shuns any and everyone makes it hard to be sociable in the least. I have nothing against anyone, no matter what their walk of life is, the problem is they have something against people like me or anyone else who is slightly different then they are.
Again, a Tango Takes Two.
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Vermont is a state that puts out bumper stickers saying "Don't Jersey Vermont", meaning don't let NJ people take over Vermont with their many "ways". If that isn't intolerant, neurotic, insular behavior I don't know what is. For all the intolerance you claim there is in NJ, I never see people go to the length of printing xenophobic bumper stickers the way Vermonters do.
On a trip to Cape May I saw Bumper Stickers that said "Don't Jersey Hunterdon County". Also, I know a couple Vermonters and it is not that they don't have anything against civilized people from Jersey, but rather that they don't like want their state to be urbanized and fall into crime, decay and pollution, i.e., like North and Central Jersey.
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Texas?? Are you kidding? I've spent a LOT of time in Texas and they are one of the most intolerant of "alternative lifestyles". In Texas, people with a particular "alternative lifestyle" will look down on people with the same alternative lifestyle! I had it happen - a divorced woman I worked with in Frisco (Dallas) looked down on another divorced woman for being divorced!
I see someone has never been to Austin...
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There are lots of people who believe a lot of stereotypes, that's not surprising. Many people are ignorant enough to blindly follow stereotypes. Many people also never mature past high school cliquishness and take their "downtrodden nerd" mentality into adulthood where they continue to bemoan their inferior status at the hands of the "jocks" and "preps" and "guidos" etc., but the cliques (as they see it) have changed to include new cliques like "soccer moms".
Ohh, but a stereotype about Vermont or Texas is okay
Anyway, as I said, it is not about "us vs them" but rather about how hard it is to live from the norm and form any kind of community with people who have no interest in anyone slightly different from their blue collar conservative values. It is not about a "downtrodden nerd" or "jocks" or "preps" and I never hinted as such, but it is about a certain kind of people being in the majority.
Just as someone from Oklahoma, another state I visisted, who is non-white is not being "highschoolish" by saying something about that states disproportionate population of racist people, someone in Jersey is not being "highschoolish" by pointing out that Jersey is indeed a pretty socially conservative state that is not very friendly to those of us who differ from the norm in our lifestyles.
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Of course, there are those of us who have grown well past that and are able to relate to others in a real way and not worry about superficial nonsense like who is a soccer mom, guido, etc. Honestly - who the hell cares??
Perhaps if there is one "alternative lifestyle" that people in New Jersey do seem to be intolerant of, it is that of the whining complainer. And that's a good thing, we should be intolerant of them, so they will hurry up and leave.
So, I suppose a group of gay activist in, ohh, let's say Alabama who are against the states homophobic attitudes are also "whining complainers" who have not "grown up" and still think of things as being "jocks and nerds" blah blah blah...
So The Daily Telegraph, one of Britain's largest newspapers owned in part by the same people as the Chicage Times, is a tabloid and Cambridge sociologists have no idea what they are talking about? Okay...
And again, saying "people are the same everywhere" is simply untrue. I can tell you from experience that just going to Vermont or Maine or New Hampshire or Canada, people are different in different locations. America is really a bunch of small countries, with different lifestyles and cultures, in one Union:
I've spent much more time in Canada and Vermont and I can tell you that people there are no different from people anyplace else in terms of being "jerks" or "nice" people. People are different in terms of their culture; for example, people in Montreal are different from New Yorkers in many ways, one obvious one being that virtually all Montrealais speak French while few NYers do. But, there are jerks there and in NY and it's the same proportion.
As for "what do urban theorists know", they know a lot, and I agree with the map in the wikipedia article you linked. There's nothing in there about "jerks" vs. "non-jerks" though. That's where a vivid imagination comes into play...
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
As I said, maybe three times, you can find people of a same type everywhere, but just as their are a higher concentration of certain kinds of people in different areas. One can find vein, fashion crazed materialist with way to much bootox anywhere, but are you really going to tell me Beverely Hills has the same concentration of them as Bangor, Maine? Or that there are just as many conservative, family minded people in San Francisco as their are in rural Arkansas?
You can put people into "types" everywhere and then find the same "types" everywhere, but that's superficial and bigoted.
I've known vain, botoxed people who were much kinder and nicer than people with low self-esteem and no botox, and vice versa. One of my best friends is pretty vain but he's the friendliest person and very open to people. Vanity may not be a great attribute but it's not what makes a person a "jerk".
As for "conservative, family-minded" and all that, your contention is that NJ is too conservative or famlly-minded for a single man with no kids to feel at home (which is completely untrue as I have much more experience in this area and know for a fact that people in NJ are as accepting of a single man as people in Arkansas or California or Kansas would be). So if you have no problem believing people in NJ are closed-minded conservative/family-minded people why would you think that people in San Francisco wouldn't be? Either way, it goes against the stereotype.
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
If everything was the same wherever you go, than why the heck is there even a website called "city-DATA!?"
Because not everything is the same wherever you go. Who said such a thing? Not me. I don't understand why you're throwing in this non-sequitur (red herring?).
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Again, for the fourth time I think, A TANGO TAKES TWO. I am fine with people from all walks of life as long as they are fine with me. It is, however, kind of hard to deal with people who have no interest in dealing with you just because you are different from them. The way the "Jersey Shore" crowd treats everyone who isn't exactly like them or the way the general population shuns any and everyone makes it hard to be sociable in the least. I have nothing against anyone, no matter what their walk of life is, the problem is they have something against people like me or anyone else who is slightly different then they are.
Again, a Tango Takes Two.
I agree, it takes two to tango. I have noticed that most people get what they give and give what they get. People who are rude, in-your-face, and judgmental tend to bring out the same in others. For example, someone who would go onto a NJ board and make negative stereotypes and generalizations about NJ'ans and present it in a blunt, in-your-face, offensive and rude manner is probably the type of person to bring that out in others and that attitude is probably at the root of his bad experience with others.
I have a friend who was working as a front desk clerk at a hotel in Bergen County; I used to work there and help out on occasion. One night, he had a guest come to the front desk, a man with a southern accent who had obviously been drinking. The man asked if there was a liquor store open, but it was past 10 so my friend informed him there was none. The man then asked if there was a gas station in walking distance that sold beer, and my friend informed him that gas stations don't sell beer. The guy got angry and started swearing about NJ and then twice made an ethnic slur about my friend; my friend told the guy, "look sir, you're drunk, you're being offensive and I'm asking you to go to your room before I call the police". So the guy slowly retreats to his room, whining the whole time, "Everyone was right, folks in NJ are rude a-holes...."...blah blah blah...
That's mostly my experience. People in NJ are indeed rude and in-your-face, but only in response to people who are that way with them, first.
In fact, people EVERYWHERE tend to be respectful until disrespected, and when disrespected they become rude and in-your-face back. I've seen it in the South, Midwest, and West as well as NJ/Northeast.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
On a trip to Cape May I saw Bumper Stickers that said "Don't Jersey Hunterdon County". Also, I know a couple Vermonters and it is not that they don't have anything against civilized people from Jersey, but rather that they don't like want their state to be urbanized and fall into crime, decay and pollution, i.e., like North and Central Jersey.
I live in North Jersey and where I live there is no crime and little pollution, no more pollution than you'd find in any suburb anywhere in Hunterdon Cty or the rest of the nation. So, I don't know what you're talking about, "crime, decay and pollution, i.e., like North and Central Jersey".
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
I see someone has never been to Austin...
Been to Austin - it's funny, they all point to Austin and say that "it's not like being in Texas". Go figure.
seems someone has never been to any other part of Texas...and probably not Austin, either....
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Ohh, but a stereotype about Vermont or Texas is okay
No, it's not OK - what stereotype was made about either? None. I simply pointed out that people in both states can be as big jerks as anywhere else and that your particular stereotype of the "open to different people" Vermonters and Texans is easily debunked.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Anyway, as I said, it is not about "us vs them" but rather about how hard it is to live from the norm and form any kind of community with people who have no interest in anyone slightly different from their blue collar conservative values. It is not about a "downtrodden nerd" or "jocks" or "preps" and I never hinted as such, but it is about a certain kind of people being in the majority.
Well, if it's SO hard, how do so many of us do it then? My experience is that it's pretty easy for me to make friends, and my friends include people of all lifestyles - soccer moms and dads, single men, single women, non-married couples, married couples, older and younger people, Yankee fans, Mets fans, non-baseball fans, non-sports fans, Sports fans, people who hate classical music, people who love classical music, childless couples, couples with adopted kids, etc.
I never, ever feel that I "don't fit in". I have my friends, I live my life and do the things I enjoy, I participate in organizations and activities with people from all walks of life, from soccer moms to young single people to elderly people with grandchildren. Occasionally someone looks down on me - so what? Then that person is a jerk. One soccer mom might look down on me, but that doesn't mean they all do.
I guess if I were an oversensitive, easily hurt person with an attitude problem of my own whereby I instigated negativity I might have much more trouble with many more types of people, but I'm not like that, so I never feel rejected or that I don't "fit in".
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Originally Posted by victorianpunk
Just as someone from Oklahoma, another state I visisted, who is non-white is not being "highschoolish" by saying something about that states disproportionate population of racist people, someone in Jersey is not being "highschoolish" by pointing out that Jersey is indeed a pretty socially conservative state that is not very friendly to those of us who differ from the norm in our lifestyles.
He sounds pretty high-schoolish to me, if he is so focused on racism that he feels he can't enjoy living where he does.
Quote:
Originally Posted by victorianpunk
So, I suppose a group of gay activist in, ohh, let's say Alabama who are against the states homophobic attitudes are also "whining complainers" who have not "grown up" and still think of things as being "jocks and nerds" blah blah blah...
Pretty much, yeah. If they are against laws or other forms of discrimination, that's understandable...but if their complaint is a vague, broad stereotype of "everyone's so homophobic" then yes, that's pretty juvenile, it's most likely a catch-all they use to blame "homophobia" for all their problems, and it most likely is something they experience by instigating it.
Most people can tell the difference pretty easily between someone who has a legitimate complaint vs. the loudmouth instigators who bring their grief upon themselves. I'm pretty sure I can tell...
So The Daily Telegraph, one of Britain's largest newspapers owned in part by the same people as the Chicage Times, is a tabloid and Cambridge sociologists have no idea what they are talking about? Okay...
My Mother is a Brit; I have relatives living over there. The Telegraph? You certainly take it more seriously than they do.
Moderator cut: Personal attack
Last edited by bmwguydc; 02-27-2010 at 08:54 PM..
Reason: Personal attack
What does this have to do with gay activists and the state of Alabama?
That jerseyshore crowd or whoever have a right to exist as well as me, you or anyone else. I don't think the bible belt should vanish off the earth just because I don't care for it. We are not going to like each other all the time. Fact of life.
I guess some people never learn this lesson.
FIRST, I need to explain that by "alternative lifestyle" I am not talking about just gays, but about the whole non-traditional thing. What I mean is best explained here: Alternative lifestyle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
New Jersey is allot more conservative than it lets on, I have noticed in my 28 years of living here. Here, just about everyone seems to expect people to follow the same exact life script: be a kid, ride a bike, get older and play sports if you are a boy (non negotiable) go to college and party, get out of college and work somewhere for a few years then get married, have kids, the kids grow up while you grow out of shape, the kids leave the house and you move to Florida to die.
That's it. No gays, no Child Free people, no bohemianism, no "just slacking and enjoying life". In Jersey, it's the Norman Rockwell nightmere...only with a sprinkling of "Jersey Shore" and "My Cousin Vinnie" thrown in.
The prevailing attitude in Jersey is probably the same as the Bible Belt, only not as racist and not with the religious backing to it. Around here, it's just tradition backing things up and no one wants to challenge those traditions and if you do, get ready to be treated as an absolute weirdo and no one will be on your wave length.
I think the issue is also that all of our cities here STINK. They are all ghetto as can be and crime ridden and no one wants to live there. Hence, we are all one big suburb with bad-area only cities and no places for someone who is a little different from the three-kids-a-dog-a-husband-and-wife-and-a-SUV lifestyle to congregate with like minded people.
I am 28, straight male, childfree, never want kids and am into magick (purposely spelled with a "k") pet rodents, heavy metal, alternative and ambient music...I might as well be living in Alabama the way people look at me. I could not imagine how hard it must be for gay people in Jersey or childfree woman.
Note to all: if you are even slightly away from the usuall suburbanite Mod cutmarried and with a bunch of little mod cut running around the yard or plan on being as such soon, Jersey is not for you.
This is just one more reason I am leaving as soon as I get the funds together to do so.
EDIT: granted, you will be left alone more often than not for the most part, but that is just the thing, you will be ALONE Here in Jersey, 99% of the people are really blue-collar traditional Norman Rockwell types, and alternative type people are few and far between. You can live here without being harassed on a day to day basis, but get ready for an existince that is marked by being around people with whom you are not on the same wave length with to say the least.
I tooootally agree.. i definitely understand the point you are making... if you are different in New Jersey you are left out, it's true.. and I have been here for 26 years.. People stress New Jersey thinking it's a little New York and it isn't .. at least New York has Manhattan.. and New Jersey has nothing where you can have fun without getting shot at! .. I work in Newark and a man got stabbed in the neck in broad daylight just as I got into work this past summer. Major cities Trenton, Paterson, Elizabeth, Newark, not really fun!
I tooootally agree.. i definitely understand the point you are making... if you are different in New Jersey you are left out, it's true.. and I have been here for 26 years.. People stress New Jersey thinking it's a little New York and it isn't .. at least New York has Manhattan.. and New Jersey has nothing where you can have fun without getting shot at! .. I work in Newark and a man got stabbed in the neck in broad daylight just as I got into work this past summer. Major cities Trenton, Paterson, Elizabeth, Newark, not really fun!
"New Jersey has nothing where you can have fun without getting shot at [sic]"?? Really??? So you can't find a fun time in Hoboken? Atlantic City? New Brunswick? I can, and often do.
News flash- there are plenty of gays in suburbia - in and out. There are also very competent females -some w/o children and no need for them. No place is Norman Rockwell. That is never the reality just like the brady bunch is not. Women in general deserve much more credit than the Bravo network or the OP give them here. Sad generalizations for all women.
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Okay...
) 
Here in Jersey, 99% of the people are really blue-collar traditional Norman Rockwell types, and alternative type people are few and far between. You can live here without being harassed on a day to day basis, but get ready for an existince that is marked by being around people with whom you are not on the same wave length with to say the least.
