Chris Christie is being unfair (car, rated, between)

[shorebaby]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

I do pay for it , Roads & Highways are subsidized. But they don't return a profit like Mass Transit did , and probably will in the future. This will be hopefully just intill the economy picks up later this year , but thats enough to damage NJT 10 year ridership growth. We were one of the best transit networks in North America , and now Septa looks better then us.

If mass transit returns a profit can we stop our subsidy? The reality is mass transit operates at a deficit. I don't know when it was profitable as far back as 1992 we were subsidizing it.

http://www.state.nj.us/sci/njtbusing.shtm

Please explain to me how highways are subsidized nad by whom? It simply isn't so.

You do realize that NJ transit fares are below the average for region, don't you?

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by shorebaby

If mass transit returns a profit can we stop our subsidy? The reality is mass transit operates at a deficit.

Please explain to me how highways are subsidized nad by whom? It simply isn't so.

You do realize that NJ transit fares are below the average for region, don't you?

Mod cut Look it up and NJT is one of the highest in the region next to the MBTA & MTA. Your giving me a link to something in 1992 , since then we've gone through 2 bus fleets. As soon as the economy picks up again , you won't be bothered with this issue anymore, NJT will back in the black hopefully.

[shorebaby]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

Mod cutLook it up and NJT is one of the highest in the region next to the MBTA & MTA. Your giving me a link to something in 1992 , since then we've gone through 2 bus fleets. As soon as the economy picks up again , you won't be bothered with this issue anymore, NJT will back in the black hopefully.

Please provide me with some data showing the last time NJ Transit was profitable. I have provided you with with data showing we were subsidizing NJ Transit as far back as 1992. You can name call all you like but the facts don't support you.

Please let NJ transit know their fares are the highest in the region.

"“We recognize that any increase is a burden for our customers, particularly during a recession,” Weinstein said in the statement. “However, we have worked to keep local bus fares below the regional average and preserved some important discounts for seniors and people with disabilities.”"

NJ Transit Plans 25% Fare Increase Amid Deficit (Update2) - Bloomberg.com

You are entitled to your own opinons, not your own facts.....

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by shorebaby

There is no subsidy for road use, that is like saying some people benefit more from roads than others. That is simply untrue, Even if you do not drive you are conveyed over roads by some means, bus, someone elses car etc. Oh and how do you think the food gets to the stores you buy food from?

When ever you move from user pays, there is an implicit redistributive subsidy of some kind. Not everyone benefits eq2ually. (that's like saying everyone benefits from education or medicine or whatever equally and therefore there is no subsidy. It ignores that (a) not everyone pays in equally, the services provided don't benefit everyone equally, and that costs for providing services might not be the same as the benefits)

Of course my car payments don't cover the cost of my commute you forgot to include the taxes I pay, the various fees I pay for the privilege to use a car and tolls. Yeah I would say i pay for my commute and with my mass transit subsidy your commute too.

without providing more detailed numbers, this is little more than hot air. No-one has posted how much it costs to maintain the roads -- without that, there isn't very much to debate.

You claim that there is no subsidy for road users, but payment for the roads is completely decoupled from usage. How is that not a subsidy ?

Please outline the alternate fuel sources you have in mind and their impact on the economy and consumer goods. See when you raise fuel taxes you also raise the prices of any good or service that is transported, that would be everything.

There are a number of ways to generate power (nuclear, coal, etc). If one source becomes more expensive, they can move to other sources.

I don't follow your other point -- I was addressing your contention that raising gas prices would make mass transit more expensive. That may be so, but a gas tax hike will primarily hit whatever mode of transportation is the least fuel efficient (e.g. an SUV with one occupant)

[Nexis4Jersey]

Originally Posted by shorebaby

Please provide me wit some data showing the last time nj transit was profitable. I have provided you with with data showing we were subsidizing NJ Transit as far back as 1992. You can name call all oyu like but the facts don't support you.

Please let NJ transit know their fares are the highest in the region.

"“We recognize that any increase is a burden for our customers, particularly during a recession,” Weinstein said in the statement. “However, we have worked to keep local bus fares below the regional average and preserved some important discounts for seniors and people with disabilities.”"

NJ Transit Plans 25% Fare Increase Amid Deficit (Update2) - Bloomberg.com

You are entitled to your own opinons, not your own facts.....

1. They kinda do know they are the highest.
2. The last couple of Fare hikes were to cover new Projects and upgrades needed for safety reasons.
3. NJT should cut at the top more and not the bottom.
4. People are going to get very angry over this and i can see law suits and other crap.
5. hmmmmm, i wonder if i can use my disability discount and thankgod they left the senior.
Mod cut
7. I find it hard to beleave that you don't use transit everyday or 1,2x a week.
8. If you don't want to pay for other agencies subsides , move to Alaska or Canada.
9. You have to realize that NJT has multiple depts , Bus covers light rail and future streetcars, and Rail division. If you broke it down , it would depend on the line and system , Northeast Corridor ,Morris & Essex , North Jersey Coastal lines are profitable , for Light Rail only the Newark & HBLR are profitable. So it depends on the dept or system.

[shorebaby]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

When ever you move from user pays, there is an implicit redistributive subsidy of some kind.

without providing more detailed numbers, this is little more than hot air. No-one has posted how much it costs to maintain the roads -- without that, there isn't very much to debate.

You claim that there is no subsidy for road users, but payment for the roads is completely decoupled from usage. How is that not a subsidy ?

There are a number of ways to generate power (nuclear, coal, etc). If one source becomes more expensive, they can move to other sources.

I don't follow your other point -- I was addressing your contention that raising gas prices would make mass transit more expensive. That may be so, but a gas tax hike will primarily hit whatever mode of transportation is the least fuel efficient (e.g. an SUV with one occupant)

Of course it is hot air, I didn't bring it up I simply debunked it.


Well clearly road use is not decoupled from usage, see tolls. Also everyone benefits from roads equally, see transports of goods and services.

If taxes were not raised on gas to begin with there would be no reason to move to any other source. Also coal is very polluting as for nuclear get back to me in 10 years, it takes that long to build one.

I don't understand your point, is the gas tax to improve fuel efficiency or pay for mass transit? If you want to discuss tax policy with regards to any issue other than mass transit you start another thread.

[shorebaby]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

1. They kinda do know they are the highest.
2. The last couple of Fare hikes were to cover new Projects and upgrades needed for safety reasons.
3. NJT should cut at the top more and not the bottom.
4. People are going to get very angry over this and i can see law suits and other crap.
5. hmmmmm, i wonder if i can use my disability discount and thankgod they left the senior.
Mod cut
7. I find it hard to beleave that you don't use transit everyday or 1,2x a week.
8. If you don't want to pay for other agencies subsides , move to Alaska or Canada.
9. You have to realize that NJT has multiple depts , Bus covers light rail and future streetcars, and Rail division. If you broke it down , it would depend on the line and system , Northeast Corridor ,Morris & Essex , North Jersey Coastal lines are profitable , for Light Rail only the Newark & HBLR are profitable. So it depends on the dept or system.

Wouldn't it be easier just to say you can't support any of your contentions?

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by shorebaby

Of course it is hot air, I didn't bring it up I simply debunked it.

Well clearly road use is not decoupled from usage, see tolls. Also everyone benefits from roads equally, see transports of goods and services.

But it is, because the roads are not funded exclusively by the tolls. My understanding is that tolls go into the general fund and roads are paid for with the general fund (some of the costs might be paid for by state and some by local authorities, but the point is, it doesn't come directly from tolls).

Even if it were funded entirely by tolls, there are some road users who use more local roads and some who make more use of the highways.

And AGAIN, the fact that everyone indirectly benefits from the roads is not the same thing as everyone benefits equally. Again, that's like saying that everyone benefits "equally" from education, or medicine or whatever.

If taxes were not raised on gas to begin with there would be no reason to move to any other source. Also coal is very polluting as for nuclear get back to me in 10 years, it takes that long to build one.

The point is that power can be generated on different sources, so if it becomes impractical to use one source, it can move to another source. Of course it takes time to produce the infrastructure.

I don't understand your point, is the gas tax to improve fuel efficiency or pay for mass transit? If you want to discuss tax policy with regards to any issue other than mass transit you start another thread.

The point is that if you increase the gas tax, the cost is primarily picked up by those who, directly or indirectly, use the most gas. It's not true that mass transit costs will increase by the same amount as road use (even if mass transit were paying gas tax) I'm not disputing that there is a large amount of indirect use of gas (e.g. in transportation).

[elflord1973]

Originally Posted by shorebaby

Wouldn't it be easier just to say you can't support any of your contentions?

What I'd like to see is support for the claim that everyone "benefits equally" from the roads. Bonus points if you can show that there is no subsidy by demonstrating that everyone "pays equally" for them.

[shorebaby]

Originally Posted by elflord1973

But it is, because the roads are not funded exclusively by the tolls. My understanding is that tolls go into the general fund and roads are paid for with the general fund (some of the costs might be paid for by state and some by local authorities, but the point is, it doesn't come directly from tolls).

Even if it were funded entirely by tolls, there are some road users who use more local roads and some who make more use of the highways.

And AGAIN, the fact that everyone indirectly benefits from the roads is not the same thing as everyone benefits equally. Again, that's like saying that everyone benefits "equally" from education, or medicine or whatever.

The point is that power can be generated on different sources, so if it becomes impractical to use one source, it can move to another source. Of course it takes time to produce the infrastructure.

The point is that if you increase the gas tax, the cost is primarily picked up by those who, directly or indirectly, use the most gas. It's not true that mass transit costs will increase by the same amount as road use (even if mass transit were paying gas tax) I'm not disputing that there is a large amount of indirect use of gas (e.g. in transportation).

To say some benefit more from roads to others is simply untrue, it is akin to saying some benefit more form our military than others.

Power for cars, buses etc. cannot be generated practically by any source other than gas. This is a mass transit dicscussion.

Buses us more gas than cars yet according to posters on this site NJ Transit is excempt from a fuel tax. Why don't we simply drop the subsidy for NJ transit? It is very clear cut who benefits from it's use.