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Old 03-25-2010, 09:08 PM
 
607 posts, read 781,593 times
Reputation: 519

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Are all of those who want us to take a pay cut now (which is what a freeze AND a health care percentage are) willing to give us the kinds of raises seen in the private sector for people with our level of education as soon as the recession turns around?
So, the fact that I work for a billion dollar company that froze wages a year ago for every person at the director level and above, and capped raises for everyone else at a max of 1.2%, and pays a significantly higher percentage toward my health care - those are OK with you, as long as you get yours, right?

I chose my career path, as you did, so it isn't sour grapes. I am very involved with my children's school, and we learned today that up to 15 teachers, aides, etc. were told they are gone after this year. Could a wage freeze have helped save at least some of these jobs? I guess it matters to you only which side of the room you would be sitting on - if you were let go, a 'pay cut' might not seem like such a bad idea, but if you kept your job, and your pay increase, well... don't let the door hit you too hard on the way out.

 
Old 03-25-2010, 09:10 PM
 
1,920 posts, read 2,886,349 times
Reputation: 911
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
I don't think he's saying they're special. He's saying that all the other public sector workers should suck it up, not just teachers.

Bingo! The guy you quoted is very very angry. I feel for him.
 
Old 03-26-2010, 05:24 AM
 
15,797 posts, read 13,230,342 times
Reputation: 19693
Quote:
Originally Posted by NJ07035 View Post
So, the fact that I work for a billion dollar company that froze wages a year ago for every person at the director level and above, and capped raises for everyone else at a max of 1.2%, and pays a significantly higher percentage toward my health care - those are OK with you, as long as you get yours, right?

I chose my career path, as you did, so it isn't sour grapes. I am very involved with my children's school, and we learned today that up to 15 teachers, aides, etc. were told they are gone after this year. Could a wage freeze have helped save at least some of these jobs? I guess it matters to you only which side of the room you would be sitting on - if you were let go, a 'pay cut' might not seem like such a bad idea, but if you kept your job, and your pay increase, well... don't let the door hit you too hard on the way out.
You are asking me to be content with less of a raise than you get. You get a 1.2% pay increase (even during a recession) and I get a 1.5% pay decrease? How is that fair? How is that me getting mine? Its not.

And what about the fact that NO ONE is ever running about during an economic boom talking about raising teachers salaries at a level equal to that of the private sector?

FYI my "raise" for the upcoming year is less than 1.2%. I would be getting an additional $380. I could care less if its frozen if it would save jobs (and mine will not be cut as I teach science despite only being 5 years on the job) but in my district we lost 22% of our budget. Freezes for teachers, and staff will only make up less than half of that. What bothers me is the public belief that somehow I and other teachers are overpaid.

And another FYI, while we are a public school district (and the top one in the state at that) we are county run, so we do not have the option of raising local property taxes. What is going to get cut along with our pay freeze (which is going to happen since I along with most of the other teachers agreed to it) is that services are going to be gone. No more clubs or extracurricular activities, not because teachers aren't getting paid (I run two after school activities myself at no pay) but because the district will not pay for any of the incidentals. No more AP classes since there will be less teachers.

You wish me well with the door hitting me on the way out. The irony is I, and the many other science teachers like me do have an out, that most other teachers do not have. So who is going to teach the sciences when we are gone? Who is going to give their time for the extra curricular activities that colleges now REQUIRE for admission?

As much as I miss my students, and I will, their parents will miss me more.

Last edited by lkb0714; 03-26-2010 at 05:25 AM.. Reason: another thought
 
Old 03-26-2010, 05:34 AM
 
15,797 posts, read 13,230,342 times
Reputation: 19693
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
The idea that everyone who is not paid from tax dollars is getting an investment bankers bonus is a myth. So is the idea that the public sector was left behind by the boom -- property taxes grew by about 50% during the housing bubble during a period where median income increased by more like 20%. That property tax revenue one way or another went into compensation -- either hiring more people, or paying raises.

The reality is that while teachers aren't paid that much, and while they don't take pay cuts when the economy goes downhill, the public sector in NJ did pretty well for itself in 2000-2006.



I think the primary concern of the tax payer is that they are fed up with their tax bills spiraling out of control. The issue isn't that they want to cut your pay in particular, they just want taxes brought under control one way or another. What happens in the private sector, is that if your clients or customers are not willing and able to pay, you don't just get a revenue "freeze" or growth at a slower rate -- you get a reduction in revenue and you have to deal with it. In NJ, the tax payer is no longer willing (and close to being unable) to pay, so the state and the towns will have to figure out how to get by with less. Like the private sector.

Contrary to your post, the housing bubble years were not an enormous windfall for everyone in the private sector. Incomes have not kept up with housing costs, or growth in property taxes. Therefore, they are looking to reverse that trend. The NJEA do not have any ideas about reversing this -- they simply aren't interested in addressing the tax payers concern, their primary agenda is to squeaze as much out of the tax payer as possible.
But this isnt the private sector and I also pay taxes so the idea that teachers are some how not feeling the tax crunch is not accurate. Maybe I don't feel it as badly since my limited income means I am starting out with a smaller house and saturn instead of a luxury car but again that is choice isnt it.

You are going to drive away all of the younger teachers, the science and math teachers who can go work in the private sector (l am still getting job offers weekly at the pharmaceutical companies despite the recession) and the schools are not going to be able to replace us. Who will go into teaching?

For example, I have a masters in chemistry. I can make more money with less benefits in the private sectors (I know this because I have). Why would anyone choose to teach for less money and less benefits?

We are already having a hard time in this state keeping young science and math teachers in the profession, what do you think is going to happen now?

Do you want someone who chooses less money and less benefits teaching your child math?

Think about it.
 
Old 03-26-2010, 05:39 AM
 
Location: Warren County and loving it!
5,089 posts, read 7,269,798 times
Reputation: 2596
It is your administrators that will cut your jobs. They have the budget, they control where the money is going.... Maybe they can do a retirement deal for those (not teachers) that have been around for a while. Your mayor and council can do a lot as well. They can look to trim the fat in the town.

In our town, we sold our water dept and all 11 guys are now working at the DPW.... Some for 30 yrs. A retirement package would help get rid of the fat and free up some money for other items in the town budget.

Towns are only going to lose teachers if they put their losses on the backs of the kids.
 
Old 03-26-2010, 07:11 AM
 
Location: Sneads Ferry NC/Randolph NJ/Cape Coral FL
12,949 posts, read 24,111,551 times
Reputation: 10793
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
I agree with your comments in this thread.

Indeed, when it comes to gouging the tax payers via gaming the retirement system (running up overtime to increase pension payouts, carrying over unused sick days and using them as a windfall bonus package, etc), cops are probably the worst offenders, whereas teachers compensation packages don't permit this sort of abuse.
Yes they are but now the payouts for unused time will be capped at $15K, so you won't have people retiring and hetting checks for over $200K

Not sure if this applies to those already hired...I did read in the Jersey Journal that Jersey City had 20 firefighters put in their papers because of this cap
 
Old 03-26-2010, 07:15 AM
 
Location: Warren County and loving it!
5,089 posts, read 7,269,798 times
Reputation: 2596
Quote:
Originally Posted by njkate View Post
Yes they are but now the payouts for unused time will be capped at $15K, so you won't have people retiring and hetting checks for over $200K

Not sure if this applies to those already hired...I did read in the Jersey Journal that Jersey City had 20 firefighters put in their papers because of this cap
The rest of the state employees were cut to that quite a few years ago. To the best of my knowledge, Police and Fire pension has had the same rule for about 5-6 years now. Maybe not?
 
Old 03-26-2010, 07:42 AM
 
Location: Tri-State Area
2,936 posts, read 5,059,288 times
Reputation: 1805
Quote:
Originally Posted by bababua View Post
Let me come up with a straight forward simple idea that for some reason nobody wants.
All state and municipal workers take a salary freeze for 2 years and then lets see what happens. If they have done so already kudos to them. If not its time to do so. Cops,Teachers,FF,everybody. Who would be against that? When revenues rise we can go ahead and figure things out. Why all the hate on my proposal? It saves money and is fair.
Sounds good to me - what does the rank & file say?
 
Old 03-26-2010, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Tri-State Area
2,936 posts, read 5,059,288 times
Reputation: 1805
Quote:
Originally Posted by MudShovel View Post
And my question still stands for those that are so vocal against the teachers, what do you do for a living?
Sorry, couldn't respond last night, I was out earning a living so I could tithe back a portion to the town. I'll say it again, this isn't a witch hunt on the teachers. The largest proportion of costs relate to school taxes, the vast majority of school tax cost is due to compensation and benefits. The largest base of compensation and benefits are teachers. There is the logic.

The same goes for the rest of the state - the largest driver of taxes in the state is comp and benefits. It's high time everyone get's on the same page.
 
Old 03-26-2010, 07:52 AM
 
Location: Sneads Ferry NC/Randolph NJ/Cape Coral FL
12,949 posts, read 24,111,551 times
Reputation: 10793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jerseyt719 View Post
The rest of the state employees were cut to that quite a few years ago. To the best of my knowledge, Police and Fire pension has had the same rule for about 5-6 years now. Maybe not?
No trust me they didn't. Our newsrag the Daily Record makes it a point to tell the public how much Capt Smith from East Jabib is getting in payout of unused sick & vacation time....I think a few months ago one in Parsippany retired with over $200 K in unused time, this has nothing to do with pension it is a payout for unused time which over 25-30 years can add up

The policy at my job....Use it or Lose it..we can only carry over 1 week which has to be used by 04/30
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