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Old 03-29-2010, 05:23 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,057,135 times
Reputation: 621

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Obviously federal funding is through taxation but you are whining about the nature of taxation in NJ when the beach replenishment funds come from everyone not just New Jerseyians. Its ironic that people are complaining about the amount spent on beach replenishment and not on national flood insurance.

Whining ? No....basically I'm calling attention to the over taxation in general and asking those in denial about the horrible state of NJ finances that requires a fee to sit on a "public" beach. As far as your observation that some funds used are federal and some are from NJ I would ask.....so what ? National flood insurance is not the issue in this thread.....people moving from NJ because of the outrageous taxes and cost of living is. If you have an issue with flood insurance this is not the tread to debate that. People in this state contribute to the cost of maintaining the beaches whether its directly through state income taxes or indirectly through federal taxes....its all money coming out of our pockets......to charge them extra for a lousy beach tag for the right to sit on a public beach that they already pay to maintain is a real slap in the face......especially when this used to be free and other states with ocean beaches don't charge at all. Call it whining if you wish but it makes me want to vomit to hear all those who don't mind paying more and more for what used to be free and is free elsewhere in states with balanced budgets without so much as a whimper as to why. Isn't there anyone else on here with a spine that isn't ready to say ENOUGH to the politicians ?

 
Old 03-29-2010, 06:31 PM
 
15,358 posts, read 12,864,914 times
Reputation: 19227
Quote:
Originally Posted by FlyersFan View Post
Whining ? No....basically I'm calling attention to the over taxation in general and asking those in denial about the horrible state of NJ finances that requires a fee to sit on a "public" beach. As far as your observation that some funds used are federal and some are from NJ I would ask.....so what ? National flood insurance is not the issue in this thread.....people moving from NJ because of the outrageous taxes and cost of living is. If you have an issue with flood insurance this is not the tread to debate that. People in this state contribute to the cost of maintaining the beaches whether its directly through state income taxes or indirectly through federal taxes....its all money coming out of our pockets......to charge them extra for a lousy beach tag for the right to sit on a public beach that they already pay to maintain is a real slap in the face......especially when this used to be free and other states with ocean beaches don't charge at all. Call it whining if you wish but it makes me want to vomit to hear all those who don't mind paying more and more for what used to be free and is free elsewhere in states with balanced budgets without so much as a whimper as to why. Isn't there anyone else on here with a spine that isn't ready to say ENOUGH to the politicians ?
Not for nothing but I have mentioned in this thread over and over again that I am against beach badges. I know that doesn't fit in with your paradigm and all but it is fairly clear nonetheless.
 
Old 03-29-2010, 07:29 PM
 
153 posts, read 419,490 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Not for nothing but I have mentioned in this thread over and over again that I am against beach badges. I know that doesn't fit in with your paradigm and all but it is fairly clear nonetheless.
Beach badges are a necessary evil. If the beaches were "free," every taxpayer in a town with a beach would have to foot the bill for the cleanup, maintenance, boardwalk, entrances, dunes, lifeguards and capital projects. In other words, the locals would pay the bill whether they use the beach or not while the tourists wouldn't kick in a cent. People from up north never believe me, but it's true - towns do not make money on beach badge fees. In fact, it's usually a net loss and local taxpayers have to pick up the slack anyway. Scrapping badges would instantly cause local taxes in every town with a beach to skyrocket.

In states where property taxes aren't a big deal in the first place, or the state has money to give beach aid to local towns, this cost can be spread around and nobody minds. But in New Jersey, user fees are unfortunately the way to go.
 
Old 03-29-2010, 08:35 PM
 
15,358 posts, read 12,864,914 times
Reputation: 19227
Quote:
Originally Posted by GS37 View Post
Beach badges are a necessary evil. If the beaches were "free," every taxpayer in a town with a beach would have to foot the bill for the cleanup, maintenance, boardwalk, entrances, dunes, lifeguards and capital projects. In other words, the locals would pay the bill whether they use the beach or not while the tourists wouldn't kick in a cent. People from up north never believe me, but it's true - towns do not make money on beach badge fees. In fact, it's usually a net loss and local taxpayers have to pick up the slack anyway. Scrapping badges would instantly cause local taxes in every town with a beach to skyrocket.

In states where property taxes aren't a big deal in the first place, or the state has money to give beach aid to local towns, this cost can be spread around and nobody minds. But in New Jersey, user fees are unfortunately the way to go.
The beach budget in my town is ridiculous and is geared towards separating bennys from their money.

In my town the beach budget is primarily for "grooming" the beach which is a waste of time and costly both ecologically and economically. They do not need to rake the beach every single day especially when a neighboring town just ran over and killed an endangered species with the rake and got $50k in fines. Run it once a week and save a big chunk of dough and more plovers, then no need for beach badges at least not for locals.

If the beach businesses (all 6 of them) need the beach swept they should pay for it. It literally makes not difference to the locals and does nothing to improve our beach experience.
 
Old 03-29-2010, 08:42 PM
 
153 posts, read 419,490 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
The beach budget in my town is ridiculous and is geared towards separating bennys from their money.

In my town the beach budget is primarily for "grooming" the beach which is a waste of time and costly both ecologically and economically. They do not need to rake the beach every single day especially when a neighboring town just ran over and killed an endangered species with the rake and got $50k in fines. Run it once a week and save a big chunk of dough and more plovers, then no need for beach badges at least not for locals.

If the beach businesses (all 6 of them) need the beach swept they should pay for it. It literally makes not difference to the locals and does nothing to improve our beach experience.
Obviously you're talking about Manasquan and Sea Girt. Coincidentally, I lived in Manasquan and was involved in local government there, so I can comment readily on their situation.

Manasquan's beach budget IS bloated. You're correct on that. But the beach absolutely needs to be raked every day in the summer. I've been to beaches in towns that don't rake each day and it's not pretty. In a town with Manasquan's summer traffic, the beach would look horrendous if daily raking didn't take place. I don't know who the locals are who do not care about the appearance of the beach and the macadam beachwalk, but I never met them in the almost 10 years I lived and worked in town.

As far as the Sea Girt situation and the piping plover, it's a miserable situation imposed by the state. They're between a rock and a hard place. A beach rake accidentally ran over an endangered bird. A local busy-body who's obsessed with this stuff notified the state, then the state tried to impose a fine on the town. The town sued the state to get it overturned, the state wants to settle, but part of the settlement would mean Sea Girt would have to permanently close one of its beaches to humans indefinitely. Sea Girt said no way and is still fighting.

On beach badges - if you use the beach, you buy a badge. It's either that, or have no beach badges and then have the local taxpayers get stuck with all the upkeep. I'd rather have the people who use the beach (whether they live in town or not) pay for it. It's not "bennies" versus "locals," as everyone pays the exact same price for beach badges whether you live in town or not.
 
Old 03-29-2010, 09:15 PM
 
15,358 posts, read 12,864,914 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GS37 View Post
Obviously you're talking about Manasquan and Sea Girt. Coincidentally, I lived in Manasquan and was involved in local government there, so I can comment readily on their situation.
Clever guy, did you like Squan? Did you find the tax situation especially heinous?

Quote:
Originally Posted by GS37 View Post
Manasquan's beach budget IS bloated. You're correct on that. But the beach absolutely needs to be raked every day in the summer. I've been to beaches in towns that don't rake each day and it's not pretty.
Really? Sandy Hook doesn't rake everyday and their beaches may have local wrack on them but they are pretty none the less. It also does not seem to be stopping people from going to their beaches either. In fact they have enacted a carry in carry out policy pretty well. I would like to see it done here in Squan too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GS37 View Post
In a town with Manasquan's summer traffic, the beach would look horrendous if daily raking didn't take place. I don't know who the locals are who do not care about the appearance of the beach and the macadam beachwalk, but I never met them in the almost 10 years I lived and worked in town.

As far as the Sea Girt situation and the piping plover, it's a miserable situation imposed by the state. They're between a rock and a hard place. A beach rake accidentally ran over an endangered bird. A local busy-body who's obsessed with this stuff notified the state, then the state tried to impose a fine on the town. The town sued the state to get it overturned, the state wants to settle, but part of the settlement would mean Sea Girt would have to permanently close one of its beaches to humans indefinitely. Sea Girt said no way and is still fighting.
You should see what is going on at Sandy Hook. Basically the park service is fining itself for the same situation. Plovers are a pain.

Quote:
Originally Posted by GS37 View Post
On beach badges - if you use the beach, you buy a badge. It's either that, or have no beach badges and then have the local taxpayers get stuck with all the upkeep. I'd rather have the people who use the beach (whether they live in town or not) pay for it. It's not "bennies" versus "locals," as everyone pays the exact same price for beach badges whether you live in town or not.
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the beach badge issue.
 
Old 03-29-2010, 09:19 PM
am2
 
Location: Charlotte, NC
413 posts, read 720,994 times
Reputation: 146
Glad my family and I left there long ago.....
 
Old 03-29-2010, 09:38 PM
 
153 posts, read 419,490 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Clever guy, did you like Squan? Did you find the tax situation especially heinous?
Ha, nah, actually the borough council has always worked pretty efficiently to keep spending down. On the municipal level Squan is actually pretty good as far as small towns go - it's the school board that should be thrown out for giving some of the highest salaries I've ever seen and constant raises to boot. MHS is home to the six-figure gym teacher, go figure.

As far as the town itself, it's a great place to live. I would never move away from the Shore area overall, but I'm a bit farther south now. My only issue with Manasquan is that some people never leave the damn place! Pt. Pleasant may as well be in California to half these people.


Quote:
Really? Sandy Hook doesn't rake everyday and their beaches may have local wrack on them but they are pretty none the less. It also does not seem to be stopping people from going to their beaches either. In fact they have enacted a carry in carry out policy pretty well. I would like to see it done here in Squan too.
Hmm, I haven't been to Sandy Hook in years, but I know a couple other state parks have the same Carry In, Carry Out policy. I'd be surprised if they didn't rake the public bathing beaches at least after weekends, though. I know sometimes it's done in the early AM hours before the sun comes up. That's actually when they do it in my town - it's quite the production with the tractors all lit up and often a police SUV following.


Quote:
You should see what is going on at Sandy Hook. Basically the park service is fining itself for the same situation. Plovers are a pain.
LOL, I believe it. There's a big fight going on in Cape May right now with them too. In LBI, everyone has just given up the fight in Holgate. It seems like there's enough of those things around that they shouldn't endangered too much longer!

Quote:
I think we are going to have to agree to disagree on the beach badge issue.
Well, a lot of this is actually state law. But it's not overly complicated. The beaches are owned and operated by the municipality (except when it has a private owner... but that doesn't apply here anyway) so therefore the municipality must pay for its upkeep. So that means either the local taxpayers will have to pay for everything themselves out of property taxes or charge beach badges so everyone who uses the beach pays for it.

I know badges in Squan are on the pricey side, but outside of Monmouth County they're more down to Earth. But even so, the cost of a couple badges would be less than the amount you'd have to pay from local property taxes for everything from insurance to lifeguards to upkeep to capital improvement projects. Basically, badges are a great equalizer in that those who use the beach pay for it.

In Manasquan specifically, you also have the beachwalk and the maintenance at the inlet promenade to take into account. That stuff gets expensive quickly.
 
Old 03-30-2010, 09:11 AM
 
Location: New Jersey
2,510 posts, read 3,057,135 times
Reputation: 621
Quote:
Originally Posted by GS37 View Post
I know badges in Squan are on the pricey side, but outside of Monmouth County they're more down to Earth. But even so, the cost of a couple badges would be less than the amount you'd have to pay from local property taxes for everything from insurance to lifeguards to upkeep to capital improvement projects. Basically, badges are a great equalizer in that those who use the beach pay for it. In Manasquan specifically, you also have the beachwalk and the maintenance at the inlet promenade to take into account. That stuff gets expensive quickly.
You continue to make it sound like those that pay for beach badges that are on the "pricey side" are actually getting some type of a great deal when the reality is that they are now paying for something they used to get for free. All those who own in the area and pay taxes benifit from the influx of money into the shore towns from those who visit all summer long but yet thats not enough so they pass a "law" so they can legally reach into your pocket and take even more. Its a disgrace, especially when most shore towns in other states still offer free beaches and in most cases those beaches are far superior in many ways. Its just another example of the mentality of NJ goverment and how it finds ways to abuse its residents with unreasonable taxes and fees to the point that we have the highest property taxes and as long as we keep making excuses why its ok to do this the longer they will keep heaping the taxes and fees on.
 
Old 03-30-2010, 10:24 AM
 
1,536 posts, read 4,012,859 times
Reputation: 454
Millburn has to foot the bill for cleaning its parks and recreational areas, but they don't force out-of-town visitors to pay for "park tags" to enjoy the parks -- Millburn residents foot the bill to pay for park cleanup through their property taxes. No town that I'm aware of charges out-of-town visitors fees to use the parks and recreational areas of the town, so I don't see why the argument is any different when it comes to beaches and beach towns.
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