U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 1.5 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
Jump to a detailed profile or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Business Search - 14 Million verified businesses
Search for:  near: 
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 05-09-2010, 04:53 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 9,387,268 times
Reputation: 3105

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
1. There's a lot of the word "should" in your answer - apparently, the problem is that reality is different than what "should" happen, and just saying this or that "should" happen is meaningless since you really need to deal with the reality.

2. John Mack and any other CEO who didn't take a bonus needed to take a pay cut (not just forgo a bonus). Then there are the ones who needed the pay cut but took full pay plus a bonus anyway. Again, what "should" happen in capitalism doesn't happen in reality because in reality the rules are skewed to favor rich bastards like these CEO's, since so many proletariat types are so stupid as to defend them and their millions. No matter how you try to sugar-coat it and portray things as some sort of "welfare state", the fact remains that if you are makiing $13/hr. and you're late to work several times you get fired, but if you make hundreds of thousands of dollars a year and your company tanks, you can still pull in a bonus on top of that. It never "SHOULD" be that way.

3. I think you are lost, let me help you find your way:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/pennsylvania/

Well you can show your indignation by selling all your MS stock and not doing business with them. Can I stop paying my property taxes because my schools stink?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:02 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 5,057,749 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
Well you can show your indignation by selling all your MS stock and not doing business with them. Can I stop paying my property taxes because my schools stink?
I can sell my stock and not do business with them, but I can't make everyone else do the same.

You are entitled to stop supporting and voting for your elected officials, but you can't make everyone else do the same.

Even a self-righteous Hoboken yuppy benny should be able to figure that out.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 9,387,268 times
Reputation: 3105
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
I can sell my stock and not do business with them, but I can't make everyone else do the same.

You are entitled to stop supporting and voting for your elected officials, but you can't make everyone else do the same.

Even a self-righteous Hoboken yuppy should be able to figure that out.
I am not asking anyone else to stop paying their taxes. I only wish to have the same option I have when dealing with the private sector.

My my we are cranky tonight. Why all the class envy?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:06 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,767,025 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by lkb0714 View Post
Those are just part of the 21 different measures used to calculate the ranking.
Are you then advocating a single measure approach? If so which one?
No, I'm pointing out that if you use tax revenue as your definition of smartness and then observe that the high taxes states are "smarter", that is a circular argument.

This is the case whether or not it's only "part" of the metrics used.

Quote:
OK. So then the debate is about lower taxes not better schools. Thats fine.
The two are related, since economic resources are scarce. The idea is to make cuts without adversely affecting education quality, and to enhance education quality while minimizing increase in spending. For example, if we want to improve math and science education and pay as little as possible for that improvement, paying science and math teachers more without paying anyone else more is much more efficient and effective than paying everyone more when the goal is to attract better math and science teachers. But the teachers unions generally won't allow that, so instead of a 2% budget increase to increase math teacher pay by 10%, we need a 10% budget increase to increase everyone's pay to 10% to achieve the same end. Of course we can't afford that, so we're unable to offer science teachers good compensation (because the unions don't want us to).

Quote:
There surely are ways to lower taxes.

1. Increase class size. Instead of 20 students per class room even just uping that to 30-35 will mean at least 1/3 less teachers.
Would make things cheaper but will probably weaken schools.

Quote:
2. Consolidate schools if not districts. Instead of 1200 pupil schools like Manasquan, have all the small towns consolidate to larger schools. Having 4-5K students per building will save lots of money on maintenance and shared services.
Interestingly enough, Joel Klein has proposed doing exactly the opposite -- breaking large bad schools into smaller schools. I suppose one of the effects of this is that it increases the likelihood that the bad apples will be separated out of the batch. Larger schools would possibly be cheaper (but might not -- Hoboken has one high school and they still spend like drunken sailors), but it might not be good for the quality of education.

Quote:
3. Cut extracurriculars. Drama club, band, sports, academic teams, key club, etc are all paid stipends for teachers and coaches.
4. Remove classes except for core content classes. No more electives.
5. Remove computers and technology support personnel. Computer labs are costly to build and maintain.
I think 5 is potentially a huge source of bloat in the budget. There are a number of other support positions that eat up a lot of dollars (e.g. hoboken have so many school nurses that one might wonder if they're running a hospital). (3) is always a good candidate for trimming bloated budgets. These items are luxurys, so they shouldn't be given the same treatment as the essentials. That's not to say they should be eliminated, but they aren't as important as math, science, english and history and they shouldn't require a large amount of funding, especially from tax payer dollars.

I don't think cutting 4 is productive, though it would be less expensive if they could pay science and math teachers more without having to give the underwater basketweaving teacher the same salary. That's the problem with the deals the union wants -- they insist on one size fits all approaches to compensation, and won't let you remove a blemish without asking you to amputate your arm.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:07 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 5,057,749 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
I am not asking anyone else to stop paying their taxes. I only wish to have the same option I have when dealing with the private sector.

My my we are cranky tonight. Why all the class envy?
You have the same options, what part of that don't you understand?

And what "class envy"?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:11 PM
 
Location: Hoboken
19,891 posts, read 9,387,268 times
Reputation: 3105
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
You have the same options, what part of that don't you understand?

And what "class envy"?
You seem to think John Mack deserves fewer rights than the "proletariate".

What options are you talking about? I want to take my money and give my child a quality education. Finland which has the best educational system in the world has this exact option.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:13 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 5,057,749 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
You seem to think John Mack deserves fewer rights than the "proletariate".
No, the same - no more and no less.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby View Post
What options are you talking about? I want to take my money and give my child a quality education. Finland which has the best educational system in the world has this exact option.
Who's stopping you? Take YOUR money and do what you want with it. Just make sure you give society what you owe society, first.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:15 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,767,025 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
I can sell my stock and not do business with them, but I can't make everyone else do the same.

You are entitled to stop supporting and voting for your elected officials, but you can't make everyone else do the same.
You can sell your shares. He can't stop paying his taxes. Other voters can force him to pay his taxes.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:18 PM
 
Location: New Jersey
4,086 posts, read 5,057,749 times
Reputation: 2531
Quote:
Originally Posted by elflord1973 View Post
You can sell your shares. He can't stop paying his taxes. Other voters can force him to pay his taxes.
He OWES his taxes. A company CAN force me to pay them, if I take their services.

If someone doesn't like the services, he should move. One person I know of moved from NJ to PA. Another person in this thread finds Finland to have better services for the money and he should move there. People are as free to move as they are to switch companies.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 05-09-2010, 05:26 PM
 
Location: Montgomery County, PA
2,771 posts, read 3,767,025 times
Reputation: 594
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny View Post
1. There's a lot of the word "should" in your answer - apparently, the problem is that reality is different than what "should" happen, and just saying this or that "should" happen is meaningless since you really need to deal with the reality.
Yes, but the point is that everyone gets to opt out if they don't think the compensation scheme is proper. Employees can leave, or shareholders can sell their shares. Customers can take their businesses elsewhere.

If you're in the private sector, and you can't find someone who is willing and able to pay for your products and services (and/or investors who will take on risk for you while you get those products ready for the market), they stop paying and you have to make do with less.

Tax payers don't have such remedies. Therefore, you I don't completely understand what your complaint is about -- you might not like for example Goldman's compensation scheme. If that's the case, I'd suggest to avoid retaining their services next time you're thinking of buying a company or taking your company public, and also selling all of your shares.

Quote:
2. John Mack and any other CEO who didn't take a bonus needed to take a pay cut (not just forgo a bonus). Then there are the ones who needed the pay cut but took full pay plus a bonus anyway. Again, what "should" happen in capitalism doesn't happen in reality
It could also be the case that the markets are right and you are wrong.

Quote:
3. I think you are lost, this forum is for NJ residents and the problems we face in NJ; let me help you find your way to your home:
http://www.city-data.com/forum/pennsylvania/
Actually I read and sometimes post in the philadelphia forum. But I'm happy to discuss the problems you are facing in NJ. Take a seat.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $84,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New Jersey
Similar Threads

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:34 PM.

2005-2014, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25 - Top