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Ok so you want the same. So you suggestred that Mr. Mack should take a pay cut. So you want the rank and file to take a pay cut? That makes no sense.
If we're going to apply merit pay to people we should apply it to all people. Mr. Mack did not merit his full salary, let alone a bonus. I'll give him credit for having the decency to forgo his bonus.
Let the rank and file in every industry work on merit. Let them work on commissions. If not, then why arbitrarily apply this to teachers?
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
Ah my friend I pay a confiscatory amount in taxes. However Mr. Christie is there finally defending tax payer interests and making sure we get our monies worth!
Mr. Christie isn't defending taxpayer interests, that's a load of bull crap.
Why a "confiscatory" amount? Why not pay it when you're supposed to so it doesn't have to be confiscated?
In any case, the money you pay in taxes is what you owe. It's probably skewed so that you pay more proportionately than those who make much more than you, but you seem to be OK with people making more than you paying proportionately less than you.
In any case, what's stopping you from taking YOUR money and spending it on a child's education? You never answered that question. (In case you haven't figured it out yet, the money you owe society in taxes isn't ultimately YOUR money, you owe it.)
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
Not so much you as the other one. You are the one who is obssessed with his sister and thinks every comment is directed at her.
First off, I'm a she. Second, I never said such a thing. I asked you how someone who works in an unconventional teaching environment could possibly get a fair deal under the merit system that you seem to think is so fair. I'm still waiting for your answer.
If we're going to apply merit pay to people we should apply it to all people. Mr. Mack did not merit his full salary, let alone a bonus. I'll give him credit for having the decency to forgo his bonus.
Let the rank and file in every industry work on merit. Let them work on commissions. If not, then why arbitrarily apply this to teachers?
Mr. Christie isn't defending taxpayer interests, that's a load of bull crap.
Why a "confiscatory" amount? Why not pay it when you're supposed to so it doesn't have to be confiscated?
In any case, the money you pay in taxes is what you owe. It's probably skewed so that you pay more proportionately than those who make much more than you, but you seem to be OK with people making more than you paying proportionately less than you.
In any case, what's stopping you from taking YOUR money and spending it on a child's education? You never answered that question. (In case you haven't figured it out yet, the money you owe society in taxes isn't ultimately YOUR money, you owe it.)
Of course industry works on merit. If an employer thinks a given individual merits a certain salary and benefits they pay it, if not, they don't. I would love to have the same principle apply to civil servents
I do not believe in the adage each according to his abilities each according to his needs. If has proven an abject failure.
What I pay is a big amount, I consider it a confiscatory amount because it is unreasonably high.
I do spend my own money on my childs education. As a matter of fact I pay twice, once through property taxes. But I cannot benefit from what I pay for because it is substandard and I pay for my childs private school.
Last edited by shorebaby; 05-09-2010 at 09:05 PM..
First off, I'm a she. Second, I never said such a thing. I asked you how someone who works in an unconventional teaching environment could possibly get a fair deal under the merit system that you seem to think is so fair. I'm still waiting for your answer.
And I told you several times that metrics can be created for virtually any situation. If you are telling me that the benefit your sister provides to her students can't be measured then what is the point?
Of course industry works on merit. If an employer thinks a given individual merits a certain salary and benefits they pay it, if not, they don't. I would love to have the same principle apply to civil servents
No, industry works very little on merit. If anything, LESS than public jobs. I've worked in and with enough private-sector companies to know that it works more on favoritism and nepotism as well as playing games with numbers to achieve a bottom line for the stockholders. I've worked in companies that lay off full time workers only to hire them back as contractors so they can be written off as an expense. The private sector is sick and it is that way because corporations have more pull in the government than people do. People get to vote, corporations can afford to influence whomever the people vote for. That's a big problem in this country. The other big problem is that the radical right has enough people fooled that people don't organize enough to lobby politicians the way corporations do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
I do not believe in the adage each according to his abilities each according to his needs. If has proven an abject failure.
I don't believe in worshiping money. However, I do believe that there has to be a certain amount of freedom in the market while at the same time there has to be a degree of people with more contributing more. Neither extreme is any good, but using principles from both has proven to work the best.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
What I pay is a big amount, I consider a confiscatory amount because it is unreasonably high.
Well that's not what "confiscatory" means. You should have just used English properly and said you pay, in your opinion, an "unreasonably high" amount.
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
I do spend my own money on my childs education. As a matter of fact I pay twice, once through property taxes. But I cannot benefit for what I pay for because it is substandard and I pay for my childs private school.
Actually, you are spending MY money on your city's schools, whether your child goes there or not. Why don't you start showing you mean business by sending me a check for the amount you're taking from me? Or does this only work one way, when you think you're paying too much?
In any case, I don't know what you're whining about. You said you wanted to spend YOUR money on your child's education, and now you say you are doing just that. So what's the problem? If you feel you're compelled to send your child to private school because your city's public schools are subpar then that's your problem; YOU choose to live there. Nobody's stopping you from finding a better place to live. If you feel it's worth spending all that money to live in Hoboken because you think it's such an awesome place, then stay there, but don't whine about the choices you've made in your own life.
I know in my town the public schools are among the best in the state and we don't have the problems that Hoboken would have. Nobody in my town has to send their kid to private school for a lack of quality public education, and I bet our taxes and home/property costs less, also. Of course, we can't go to Cake Boss in five minutes to order exorbitant cakes or go to Bahama Mama to get drunk with 20-somethings, but hey, I'm willing to live without that. Plus, I can park my car easily anywhere I want.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
And I told you several times that metrics can be created for virtually any situation. If you are telling me that the benefit your sister provides to her students can't be measured them what is the point?
Do you understand that the special ed kids are in the public school sytem until the age of 21? Someone has to teach them.
Some of the special ed kids are very low functioning individuals. As another poster said, whose wife is also a special ed teacher, with these students it is frequently a goal to teach them to behave & conduct themselves in an acceptable manner & attain social skills. Someone has to teach them.
Not all school districts have these programs for low functioning special ed students, & the districts that have the programs get out of district students, because the law says that they must be educated until 21. This is why I refused to give her district.
As I said, my sister is not in the only program of this type in the state of NJ. Would it be fair, as you say that merit increases are fair, for them to not be eligible? Since these are not homogenus groups, they can not be measured the way that you say that teachers should be measured.
Now that it the point. I am not obsessed with my sister, there are other teachers in the same boat, but you say that the system is fair. So you explain that one to me.
No, industry works very little on merit. If anything, LESS than public jobs. I've worked in and with enough private-sector companies to know that it works more on favoritism and nepotism as well as playing games with numbers to achieve a bottom line for the stockholders. I've worked in companies that lay off full time workers only to hire them back as contractors so they can be written off as an expense. The private sector is sick and it is that way because corporations have more pull in the government than people do. People get to vote, corporations can afford to influence whomever the people vote for. That's a big problem in this country. The other big problem is that the radical right has enough people fooled that people don't organize enough to lobby politicians the way corporations do.
I don't believe in worshiping money. However, I do believe that there has to be a certain amount of freedom in the market while at the same time there has to be a degree of people with more contributing more. Neither extreme is any good, but using principles from both has proven to work the best.
Well that's not what "confiscatory" means. You should have just used English properly and said you pay, in your opinion, an "unreasonably high" amount.
Actually, you are spending MY money on your city's schools, whether your child goes there or not. Why don't you start showing you mean business by sending me a check for the amount you're taking from me? Or does this only work one way, when you think you're paying too much?
In any case, I don't know what you're whining about. You said you wanted to spend YOUR money on your child's education, and now you say you are doing just that. So what's the problem? If you feel you're compelled to send your child to private school because your city's public schools are subpar then that's your problem; YOU choose to live there. Nobody's stopping you from finding a better place to live. If you feel it's worth spending all that money to live in Hoboken because you think it's such an awesome place, then stay there, but don't whine about the choices you've made in your own life.
I know in my town the public schools are among the best in the state and we don't have the problems that Hoboken would have. Nobody in my town has to send their kid to private school for a lack of quality public education, and I bet our taxes and home/property costs less, also. Of course, we can't go to Cake Boss in five minutes to order exorbitant cakes or go to Bahama Mama to get drunk with 20-somethings, but hey, I'm willing to live without that. Plus, I can park my car easily anywhere I want.
Well of course business functions on merit. Those who think it doesn't are usually those who cannot make it in the private sector.
Capitalism is far more effective than socialism. See Europe, it is imploding.
I wish I was spending your money sadly I am spending my own. No no I have made wise choices one of the most wise was pulling the lever for Mr. Christie. He gets it he knows state expenditures are out of control. He is taking bold decisive action to bring them under control.
And just wait until November, what happened in NJ, Va., Ma. will look like kid stuff. There will be people in Washington looking after the tax payer.
I am fairly confident Hoboken is the richer for your absence.
Do you understand that the special ed kids are in the public school sytem until the age of 21? Someone has to teach them.
Some of the special ed kids are very low functioning individuals. As another poster said, whose wife is also a special ed teacher, with these students it is frequently a goal to teach them to behave & conduct themselves in an acceptable manner & attain social skills. Someone has to teach them.
Not all school districts have these programs for low functioning special ed students, & the districts that have the programs get out of district students, because the law says that they must be educated until 21. This is why I refused to give her district.
As I said, my sister is not in the only program of this type in the state of NJ. Would it be fair, as you say that merit increases are fair, for them to not be eligible? Since these are not homogenus groups, they can not be measured the way that you say that teachers should be measured.
Now that it the point. I am not obsessed with my sister, there are other teachers in the same boat, but you say that the system is fair. So you explain that one to me.
OK let me write this again. If your sister can teach them, that means they can learn something. Metrics can be created to see if they are learning. If you are saying that they are so low funtioning that they have no ability to learn then they do not need a teacher. If the goal is to teach them how to feed themselves, or address behavioral modification issues, metrics can be created to see if the goal has been acheived.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,684,299 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by BergenCountyJohnny
No, industry works very little on merit. If anything, LESS than public jobs. I've worked in and with enough private-sector companies to know that it works more on favoritism and nepotism as well as playing games with numbers to achieve a bottom line for the stockholders. I've worked in companies that lay off full time workers only to hire them back as contractors so they can be written off as an expense. The private sector is sick and it is that way because corporations have more pull in the government than people do. People get to vote, corporations can afford to influence whomever the people vote for. That's a big problem in this country. The other big problem is that the radical right has enough people fooled that people don't organize enough to lobby politicians the way corporations do.
I don't believe in worshiping money. However, I do believe that there has to be a certain amount of freedom in the market while at the same time there has to be a degree of people with more contributing more. Neither extreme is any good, but using principles from both has proven to work the best.
Well that's not what "confiscatory" means. You should have just used English properly and said you pay, in your opinion, an "unreasonably high" amount.
Actually, you are spending MY money on your city's schools, whether your child goes there or not. Why don't you start showing you mean business by sending me a check for the amount you're taking from me? Or does this only work one way, when you think you're paying too much?
In any case, I don't know what you're whining about. You said you wanted to spend YOUR money on your child's education, and now you say you are doing just that. So what's the problem? If you feel you're compelled to send your child to private school because your city's public schools are subpar then that's your problem; YOU choose to live there. Nobody's stopping you from finding a better place to live. If you feel it's worth spending all that money to live in Hoboken because you think it's such an awesome place, then stay there, but don't whine about the choices you've made in your own life.
I know in my town the public schools are among the best in the state and we don't have the problems that Hoboken would have. Nobody in my town has to send their kid to private school for a lack of quality public education, and I bet our taxes and home/property costs less, also. Of course, we can't go to Cake Boss in five minutes to order exorbitant cakes or go to Bahama Mama to get drunk with 20-somethings, but hey, I'm willing to live without that. Plus, I can park my car easily anywhere I want.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,684,299 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by shorebaby
OK let me write this again. If your sister can teach them, that means they can learn something. Metrics can be created to see if they are learning. If you are saying that they are so low funtioning that they have no ability to learn then they do not need a teacher. If the goal is to teach them how to feed themselves, or address behavioral modification issues, metrics can be created to see if the goal has been acheived.
Retention is a problem. Again, the law says that they must be educated until 21. Someone has to teach them. There are many teachers who do this. This is not about my sister, specifically, I am using her as an example. I thought you might have understood that, but I guess not.
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Why not pay it when you're supposed to so it doesn't have to be confiscated?
