Upsetting Incident on BLM Land (Albuquerque, Dona Ana: home, buyer, live)
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You can only use that force which is legal, necessary, and fully justified by the circumstances... you cannot use deadly force ("whatever force") on another person unless certain criteria are met.. "protecting their property" i.e. if there is no harm or danger to a person does not allow you to use "whatever force".. well not unless you want to be on the other side of the courtroom... so.. if you caught someone "messing with your traps" you could legally.. make a citizens arrest within the above parameters and take the civil liability upon yourself
(Homes and castle doctrine are another story.. but certain criteria must still be met)
Trapping is inhumane and cruel...spend one second in one of those "traps"... The imbalances in nature brought about by man are better dealt with in other ways..one of those being man adjusting.. haven't we pissed on the planet enough already? Nature can usually balance itself when left alone.. it's man thats screws this up... but nature will eventually win every time..
Hunting .. sport?... for who.. the animal that is fleeing?.. or standing in some cross hair of a rifle?... please... man has taken the need for hunting away completely... its all there in your wal mart freezer section
Tell me about the thrill of hiking for hours,, of being cold, of the "stalk", about using camo and noise discipline, cover and concealment.. of being alone.. mano y mano...
you know what I would say... try USMC long rifle school
Again... and I tell this to any hunter who boasts of their skills
Hunt man.. even better.. Al Queda
Dogs should be leashed unless they are on your private fenced land and can be controlled.. if you domesticate it.. you are 100 percent responsible for it
Like many things in life 5 percent of the people impact upon 95 percent of the rest of us... I just love hiking into the (OUR) wilderness and hearing rounds go off, finding shell casings and beer cans, watching four wheelers tear up land...somehow I find them to be related many times.... who has "more" rights.. someone whose behavior "shocks the conscience" and could generally be construed as obnoxious... or someone who wants to appreciate nature as it is.. in situ..
Oh do love it when people who don't know the law try and quote it. notmeofficer, lets tear down what you just said.
Oh, and FYI, I spent the first half of my adult life in NM wearing a badge, went from patrolman to commander!
And another FYI, I myself would not use deadly force to protect personal property even though it is legal in NM. I would on the other hand use less then that.
So let's see.
You said "You can only use that force which is legal, necessary, and fully justified by the circumstances... you cannot use deadly force ("whatever force") on another person unless certain criteria are met.. "protecting their property" i.e. if there is no harm or danger to a person does not allow you to use "whatever force".. well not unless you want to be on the other side of the courtroom... so.. if you caught someone "messing with your traps" you could legally.. make a citizens arrest within the above parameters and take the civil liability upon yourself"
Wrong, maybe in California, not in NM. Here is the law
30-2-7. Justifiable homicide by citizen. (1963)
Homicide is justifiable when committed by any person in any of the following cases:
A. when committed in the necessary defense of his life, his family or his property, or in necessarily defending against any unlawful action directed against himself, his wife or family;
B. when committed in the lawful defense of himself or of another and when there is a reasonable ground to believe a design exists to commit a felony or to do some great personal injury against such person or another, and there is imminent danger that the design will be accomplished; or
C. when necessarily committed in attempting, by lawful ways and means, to apprehend any person for any felony committed in his presence, or in lawfully suppressing any riot, or in necessarily and lawfully keeping and preserving the peace
"Trapping is inhumane and cruel...spend one second in one of those "traps"... The imbalances in nature brought about by man are better dealt with in other ways..one of those being man adjusting.. haven't we pissed on the planet enough already? Nature can usually balance itself when left alone.. it's man thats screws this up... but nature will eventually win every time"
Re-read my post, I get caught in traps on a regular basis, part of the job Trapping is not cruel and inhumane, it is an ethical and legal means to taking game. And yes, we adjust but NO nature will not win everytime. People come before nature in NM. I realize that in Ca. the tree huggers and bunny humpers run the show. Not in NM
I could go on but it would be pointless.
And once again you sound like a typical city person. It is our wilderness right up to the point that somebody is using it in a lawful manner but in a way you don't approve and then it's YOUR wilderness.
Trapping may be legal (in NM) but that doesn't make it ethical.
It would be interesting to see a poll of hunters nationwide and see how many are in favor of trapping.
Also, trappinng definitely should not be allowed on BLM land where people could be injured. There's private land and there's public land. There's a distinction with no ambiguity.
This mtncat is hardcore old-school and I have an appreciation for that but he's definitely on the far end of the spectrum and doesn't realize it.
Trapping may be legal (in NM) but that doesn't make it ethical.
It would be interesting to see a poll of hunters nationwide and see how many are in favor of trapping.
Also, trappinng definitely should not be allowed on BLM land where people could be injured. There's private land and there's public land. There's a distinction with no ambiguity.
This mtncat is hardcore old-school and I have an appreciation for that but he's definitely on the far end of the spectrum and doesn't realize it.
Once again, you wish to use the public land for your own private use but wish to deny that same right to others.
Legal and ethcial, not only is it legal in NM but also in the majority of other states. Ethcial, yes as a matter of fact it is.
Definition:
1. conforming to accepted standards: consistent with agreed principles of correct moral conduct
Trapping is well within the accepted standards of our society. If the majority of people in this country felt that legal trapping was wrong then the federal government would have made it illegal years ago.
You will find that the majority of hunters are true sportsmen and support the legal, ethical, rights of all other sportsmen.
"hardcore old-school" you bet. At the far end of the spectrum, not hardly. There are many thousands of trappers across this country. Many who make their living at it.
You are correct Mtncat that I do not know the alcohol and shell casings go together. I was pointing out in my post that I could go off the charts so to speak and make these allegations about hunters and trappers similar to that. I though I made a pretty coherent statement about my concerns...thats all, my concerns.
But, here is how I know they really go together in life. Twenty years as a law enforcement officer in a very busy place tells me that guns and alcohol are usually hand in hand, whether you are standing in the woods or standing at Hollywood and Vine. Oh, and I spent all my time pounding the pavement either as a patrol officer or a detective, not as a commander or chief or sheriff or any of those desk jockey jobs.
I have worked closely with state fish and game agencies as both a patrol officer and as a District Attorney Investigator helping the D.A. to prepare hunting and trapping violations for court. So, I may have heard one too many egregious examples of violations in the hunting world.
Finally, I didn't realize that its okay to target practice from the road. I didn't realize it was okay to hunt from the road. Boy, NM is a pretty wild place if you can just shove your gun out the window of your truck and practice shooting tin cans. (I have seen them hunt from a truck on more than one occassion in NM so its got to be legal here). Oh, its not legal to do this? I am sure they just picked up their casings and ran back to the nearest beer can they could find and threw their casings down.
Your post regarding justifiable homicide in NM: I guess you are making the leap that your trap is your personal property and therefore if I am touching your trap you can justifiably kill me. Or, touching or your trap is a felony (I think it is a misdemeanor in this state), and therefore you can kill me. I must have missed something on that issue. But, if you can justifiably kill me for touching your traps than certainly trapping in the state of NM will be legal for many years to come regardless of citizen outrage.
"But, here is how I know they really go together in life." "tells me that guns and alcohol are usually hand in hand" WOW, that is rather interesting. I was not aware that you had to drink alcohol to be associated with firearms. Guess I had better give up the firearms or start drinking.
I have to admit that is one of the more insane comments I have seen in a long time.
Target practice from the road, not a wise idea but I do not believe it is illegal. Hunting from the road is illegal and again I know of no legal, ethical hunter who does this.
"Making the leap that a trap is my personal property"? You lost me there, I purchased it and it has my ID number on it so I guess that it is as much my personal property as say your car is your personal property.
As for killing someone while defending your personal property, yes that is legal in this state. BUT, if you will read my post I also state very clearly that I would not ever use deadly force to protect property. It has been done numerous times in this state however I personaly would not do such.
Trapping may be legal (in NM) but that doesn't make it ethical.
It would be interesting to see a poll of hunters nationwide and see how many are in favor of trapping.
Also, trappinng definitely should not be allowed on BLM land where people could be injured. There's private land and there's public land. There's a distinction with no ambiguity.
This mtncat is hardcore old-school and I have an appreciation for that but he's definitely on the far end of the spectrum and doesn't realize it.
As I stated in an earlier post, I understand why trapping is done, at least from a ranching perspective, (I have no knowledge as to coyote pelts being used for coats, etc.). As I said before, personally, I would probably not use trapping; I would rather use a .22, if I have a coyote problem, unless, (and this is a big one), I had such a problem with them taking my calves, lambs, young foals, etc., that it was in my best interest to get rid of the coyote problem more quickly, and if trapping would do that, then that's what I would do. This is not hypocritical; this is reality. It is being practical. I would do what I had to do, in order to protect my livestock, (or myself, for that matter. Coyotes have been known to attack people), and if that included hiring a trapper, so be it. Frankly, I think that people who have not lived a ranching/farming lifestyle just don't get the entire picture, when it comes to protecting stock.
I believe trapping has it's place, and I do not believe in interfering with another person's lawful use of the land. Also, MtnCat, may I say that I appreciate you telling us more about trapping. I, for one, don't know anything about it. I must say that what I thought of as a trap, was the old-type, such as the mountain men used. I didn't know the changes that have been made in traps, and all the other legalities of it. I still don't think I care for trapping, as such, but it's not for me to say that you shouldn't do it. Folks who harvest animals, in whatever fashion, so long as it is legal, must stand with one another, else if we are divided, the anti-hunters will continue to make attempts to further erode our right to hunt, fish, etc.
The public land is indeed, just that. If the use is legal, then other folks don't have the right to interfere, thereby denying the right of others to use of that same public land. If one person uses the land by horseback riding, does he have the right to deny use of the same land to one who prefers to use a motorcycle or ATV, simply because he doesn't like the machines? This land is for the use of all, which is why it is called "public land". If the use is legal, then one has no business picking and choosing who may use the land, and for what purpose.
Also, as was stated, there are folks who make their living trapping, and although it's not the living I would make, what business do I have telling someone else, (again, one who does so within the law), how they may make a living.
Celticlady1. It is folks like you who are really appreciated. You understand that what one person does, as long as it's legal, even if you don't agree with it for your own reasons you don't attempt to stop that activity. Much less make insane, ignorant, and uneducated accusations about it. Thanks
Have a great New Year.
Insane, ignorant, uneducated...too bad, I thought we had a good discussion going here. I, too, thought it would be informative as I know little about trapping and also thought it was a practice relegated to our past.
Mtncat, have you ever been to a homicide (justifiable or not) committed with a firearm that did not involve some alcohol? I never have but then again I have only been to about twenty or thirty of them. It was just another observation on part, albeit insane.
Thanks for all your postings. I did find it informative. Happy, peaceful New Year to you all.
Kim yes I have. I will gladly agree that the majority of them involved alcohol and or drugs however your previous post that guns and alcohol go hand in hand was so far off base as to be laughable.
From what you posted a person would assume that you as a former police officer, your fellow officers, and millions of other legal gun owners are pretty much all a bunch of drunks
You and I both know that is not the truth any more then to assume that just because a person hunts they are a drunk!
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Trapping is not cruel and inhumane, it is an ethical and legal means to taking game. And yes, we adjust but NO nature will not win everytime. People come before nature in NM. I realize that in Ca. the tree huggers and bunny humpers run the show. Not in NM
