Court ruling on well permits (Las Cruces, Santa Fe: lease, attorney, buyers)

[Devin Bent]

Originally Posted by Vinegaroon

In addition for $5, you can get a livestock well permit for your cows under 72-12-1.2

Is that automatic like a domestic well, or does it depend upon various factors?

[Vinegaroon]

You make an application to the state engineer, which I think you can view online, or go down to the Office of the State Engineer and they will give you a form. The statute says "upon filing of the application, the state engineer shall issue a livestock well permit", so there is no discretion. The only exception is if the livestock watering use will be on state or federal land, and then you have to prove you are legally entitled to have your livestock there.

[Devin Bent]

Originally Posted by Vinegaroon

You make an application to the state engineer, which I think you can view online, or go down to the Office of the State Engineer and they will give you a form. The statute says "upon filing of the application, the state engineer shall issue a livestock well permit", so there is no discretion. The only exception is if the livestock watering use will be on state or federal land, and then you have to prove you are legally entitled to have your livestock there.

I looked at it on-line and it says that it is also subject to any restriction applied by the court or local governments even if these are more restrictive than state law.

[Devin Bent]

Originally Posted by Vinegaroon

The statute says "upon filing of the application, the state engineer shall issue a livestock well permit", so there is no discretion.

The question I have about this is that some of the newspaper discussion of the recent decision said or strongly applied that domestic well permits were the exception -- that other types of permits were administered differently.

For instance the judge has been quoted as ruling that the office of the State Engineer ""shall administer domestic well applications the same as all other applications to appropriate water." Water (b)Logged in Northern New Mexico

How to square this with the statute -- IDK

[Vinegaroon]

That judge is a district court judge. He does not have the authority to change the law statewide. He can have his opinion, but until the decision goes in front of the appellate and eventually NM Supreme Court, it is only precedent for his judicial district.

The State Engineer will undoubtedly appeal this decision, and then the matter will be decided after a few years of argument and briefing. In the meantime, domestic wells are separate and the statute pertaining to them still stands. The newspaper can say whatever it wants, but an opinion of a journalist does not stand up in a court of law.

[Vinegaroon]

Originally Posted by Devin Bent

I looked at it on-line and it says that it is also subject to any restriction applied by the court or local governments even if these are more restrictive than state law.

Here is the entire statute:

72-12-1.2. Underground public waters; livestock well permits. (2003)
Statute text
A person, firm or corporation desiring to use public underground waters for watering livestock shall make an application to the state engineer on a form prescribed by the state engineer for a livestock well permit. Upon filing of the application, the state engineer shall issue a livestock well permit for the use of water for watering livestock to the applicant, provided that as part of an application for livestock watering use on state or federal land, the applicant submits proof that the applicant:
A. is legally entitled to place livestock on the state or federal land where the water is to be used; and
B. has been granted access to the drilling site and has permission to occupy the portion of the state or federal land as is necessary to drill and operate the well.
History
History: 1978 Comp., § 72-12-1.2, enacted by Laws 2003, ch. 298, § 3.

Where do you see that it is subject to a district court opinion? It is not.

[Vinegaroon]

Originally Posted by Devin Bent

I looked at it on-line and it says that it is also subject to any restriction applied by the court or local governments even if these are more restrictive than state law.

Devin:

I don't know where you saw that on-line, but perhaps you are referring the the general concept of local laws and court decisions, which would be true. The court decision that Judge Valentine made would apply to those counties he has jurisdiction over, and for instance if Santa Fe County passed a law regulating livestock tanks, they could probably do so.

However, this discussion was for the purpose of a Rio Arriba County livestock well. I'm not sure if the State Engineer has any rules or regulations governing livestock wells in particular, so it would be prudent to inquire as to those if you want to have one.

Here is the form they use. I mistated the application amount. It is $10, not $5.

http://www.ose.state.nm.us/doing-business/forms-inst/stocktank/Declaration-LivestockWaterImpoundment.pdf

[debbie at bouontiful]

[quote=Devin Bent;4505394]Debbi,

Is that enough for your intended uses? IDK.


Well no I will be retiring from raising cattle. I will always have a few horses and sheep for fun though. i intend on building quite a large green house. No this is a retirement and I am a tired of taking care of cows at this point. Just want to make sure I do not move to a place where water is at a high price. I am on a well, and have ponds and creek so I never need to think about water so water is a big issue with me.

[Devin Bent]

Originally Posted by Vinegaroon

Devin:

I don't know where you saw that on-line, but perhaps you are referring the the general concept of local laws and court decisions, which would be true. The court decision that Judge Valentine made would apply to those counties he has jurisdiction over, and for instance if Santa Fe County passed a law regulating livestock tanks, they could probably do so.

However, this discussion was for the purpose of a Rio Arriba County livestock well. I'm not sure if the State Engineer has any rules or regulations governing livestock wells in particular, so it would be prudent to inquire as to those if you want to have one.

Here is the form they use. I mistated the application amount. It is $10, not $5.

http://www.ose.state.nm.us/doing-business/forms-inst/stocktank/Declaration-LivestockWaterImpoundment.pdf

I was referring to a publication of the state engineer specifically referring to livestock wells. Apparently (?) the state engineer has some leeway interpreting or explaining the statute.

My impression -- but IDK -- is that you may be correct and livestock wells are automatic -- BUT the water is for the livestokc to drink and not for any other purpose associated with livestock -- THUS unless you have a lot of livestock the amount of water involved is fairly minor. Again, this is just an impression reading various sources.

[Devin Bent]

[quote=debbie at bouontiful;4554052]

Originally Posted by Devin Bent

Debbi,

Is that enough for your intended uses? IDK.


Well no I will be retiring from raising cattle. I will always have a few horses and sheep for fun though. i intend on building quite a large green house. No this is a retirement and I am a tired of taking care of cows at this point. Just want to make sure I do not move to a place where water is at a high price. I am on a well, and have ponds and creek so I never need to think about water so water is a big issue with me.

If you can't get by on an acre foot, it does seem you can get enough to water the animal with a livestock well, and it does seem you can buy rights up to two additional acre feet. Don't know how much that costs. I THINK in Santa Fe county it is over 30K a foot. But I am sure it is much less in Rio Arriba -- unless the wealthy with the trophy homes are driving up the price.

If the place already has a well -- then you would get whatever right come with that. There is some sort of use it or lose it provision, but I doubt if it is enforced with wells.

This is all as best I can tell you. I am no expert.

PS. If you do buy a place with a well -- then you should establish title to that with the State Engineer and the County.