Where is the best place to live off-grid? (Las Cruces, Taos: sale, houses)

[sjbasin]

Originally Posted by rybert

Septic systems are just fine.
What do you propose farmers do about their livestock, swine, and poultry?
I suppose a few thousand head of cattle using the John is out of the question?
If our water-table were oh... 20ft. then yeah, maybe let's deal with sewage differently, but @ +300ft... give me a break.

You're apparently not familiar with many parts of New Mexico where the water table is, in fact, 20ft. Here in San Juan County where over 60% of the state's surface water flows, the problem of old, outdated, and poorly designed septic systems is a problem. The same problem exists all the way from the Colorado border to the Texas border along the Rio Grande, Pecos, Gila and every little stream in the state. Suggesting that people just dig a hole in the ground and that it will work fine is suggesting that people ignore the future of the state. We've had enough of that already. Why not just install a proper system to begin with?

If you're at all familiar with feedlot operations these days you'll know that they are also required to have modern waste facilities.






"New Mexico environment secretary says leaky septic tanks pose serious environmental threat

July 2005

U.S. Water News Online
FARMINGTON, N.M. -- Septic tanks are a big source of groundwater contamination in New Mexico, state Environment Secretary Ron Curry said.
Many regulations aimed at changing that and approved by the state in April will take effect next month.
The regulations revise wastewater treatment standards and provide a mechanism to bring unpermitted systems, which are estimated to be about half the 220,000 septic tanks in the state, into oversight.
During a public meeting on the issue here, Curry said the matter hadn't been tackled by the state in more than 20 years.
Don Becker of the San Juan County Homebuilders Association asked Curry for more time to review and learn about the regulations.
"This rule is coming into effect way too fast for the people of San Juan County," Becker said. "You don't see people dying here. You don't see waste in the river."
Curry, however, had numbers to back up groundwater problems in San Juan County.
He noted that the state has spent more than $450,000 for two projects designed to clean up the San Juan and Animas rivers.
The programs, he said, will correct septic system problems in Flora Vista and improve septic tank operations in Farmington and Bloomfield, construct wetlands to reduce sediment, nutrient and bacteria loading, remediate septic systems in rural areas and remediate non-septic system pollution sources.
"You don't have a lot of problems, but you have problems," Curry said.
Some of the problems with these systems include improper installation and seeping sewage.
"You don't want to have a situation where you're drinking your neighbor's liquid waste in your well water," Curry warned.
Tom Higley, a home builder, said he has spent the last 15 years trying to construct affordable homes, which are becoming scarce in San Juan County.
"You cannot build a home for less than $150,000," Higley said, adding that he believes the new septic tank codes will greatly increase the construction costs.
Rewriting the regulations began in March 2003. Since that time, there have been educational meetings held across the state.
The changes include requirements that all undeveloped lots be at least three-quarters of an acre for a septic tank and that advanced treatment units be required on small lots.
Beginning July 1, 2007, anyone installing a septic system must be certified. There will be a homeowner certification program for those wishing to install their own systems.
Traditional septic tanks -- buried tanks in which solids settle and from which liquids filter into a leach field -- are suitable to dispose of human waste in many rural areas where lot sizes are large enough for contaminants to be filtered and diluted.

http://www.uswaternews.com/archives/...newxmexi7.html "

[rruff]

Originally Posted by sjbasin

Here in San Juan County where over 60% of the state's surface water flows, the problem of old, outdated, and poorly designed septic systems is a problem.

I've seen problems around here with proper septic tanks... but oddly, not with outhouses.

Suggesting that people just dig a hole in the ground and that it will work fine is suggesting that people ignore the future of the state.

You act like it is nuclear waste with a 10k year halflife...

If you're at all familiar with feedlot operations these days you'll know that they are also required to have modern waste facilities.

A single horse or cow produces more waste than an entire family... and they don't even dig a hole.

Where I grew up in Illinois, livestock was everywhere... and shallow wells nearby supplied the drinking water...

[_yb]

You can always go cheap on the pump



Lee, Russell, photographer

Faro Caudill drawing water from his well, Pie Town, New Mexico





Repository: Library of Congress, Prints and Photographs Division, Washington, D.C. 20540 USA,

[newmex]

You go, Gabby Hayes!! Draw that water!

Good exercise and good drinkin'

[fnord]

Originally Posted by sjbasin

Let's not turn any more of New Mexico into a sewer by refusing to install proper waste disposal systems, OK? The reason that the State EID and local governments are cracking down on septics is because there are literally hundreds of thousands of systems in New Mexico that are little more than outhouses. They're destroying groundwater and creating all sorts of problems for neighbors and others.

Wow! So Ted Turner's millions of bison herded into quadrants of rural New Mexico are not a problem, but my one or two droppings a day are?

We humans must be living, breathing toxic waste monsters!

[sjbasin]

Originally Posted by fnord

Wow! So Ted Turner's millions of bison herded into quadrants of rural New Mexico are not a problem, but my one or two droppings a day are?

We humans must be living, breathing toxic waste monsters!

Millions of bison? In New Mexico?

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!

There happen to be fewer than 250,000 bison in the entire United States.

Today, there are bison producers in all 50 states, with about 4,000 private ranches raising roughly 232,000 animals.
Bismarck Tribune - North Dakota News - Bison boom grows with rising prices

[fnord]

Originally Posted by sjbasin

Millions of bison? In New Mexico?

Bwahahahahahahaha!!!!!

There happen to be fewer than 250,000 bison in the entire United States.

I stand totally corrected, and I'm posting back to acknowledge my error (caused by a mixture of cheap Chardonnay and being tired).

I was recently reading a book titled "Off The Beaten Path: New Mexico" and it had a sidebar commenting on Ted Turner's bison herds. For some reason, I thought it was in the millions. Actually, what it says is "Turner's herds total 170,000 head" out of the estimated 250,000 in all of North America.

Ok, but still...you're comparing the dung of a quarter million bison, each weighing 1,300 to 3,900 pounds - compared to one me, at 130 pounds.

I'm just not seeing how my waste will foul New Mexico's 400-foot deep aquifers, but 250,000 bison don't. That is all.

[GregW]

Heavily restricting lot sizes to accommodate septic tank waste disposal systems is a very common back door growth control method. Instead of simply saying we do not want dense housing, while creating the same with very limited public water supply, but we don't want to say so. On site waste human disposal systems can be built on very small lots if they are properly designed and have the proper soil to treat and absorb the effluent. In many cases a non water flush toilet (fancy outhouse) can accommodate the waste and, if big enough, only require pumping twice a year. The big pit toilets at campgrounds and parks are an example. The secret is strictly limiting water use.

The last systems low density and suburban communities want to get are sewers because of the very high installation and operating costs. Sewers are a “popular” remedy for a community of failed septic systems frequently caused by allowing systems to be built in the wrong soils. Sewers are popular with some bureaucrats and contractors because they provide an opportunity, or did anyway, of getting federal funding for local improvements and petty corruption.

As far as animal waste is concerned, particularly pig, low density open ranging does not created problems because the grass and soil critters have adapted to the situation over the last few millennia or so. When the critters are confined at a higher density the waste becomes a problem. Here in rural and exurban northeast the dairy farmers collect the manure in large piles all winter and, much to the olfactory consternation of the recently arrived city dwellers, spread it on the hay and corn fields every spring. It acts more as a soil conditioner than a fertilizer but does get rid of the stuff. 100,000 cattle over one million acres is not a problem but 10,000 pigs in a 10 acre barn certainly are. Fortunately the technology exists to treat these obnoxious wasted in a relatively economical manner. Some of the systems actually yield usable fuel in the process.

This is a long post but a short essay on the problem. I suggest finding a book on Rural Sanitation as a starting reference for anyone living off grid. Then we can discuss combined heat and electricity systems operating off the methane created by the manure problem.

[dracul]

fnord...You are right about humans being living, breathing toxic waste monsters, however. Nothing has ever been so utterly toxic to the health of this planet than the boundlessly selfish activities of humanity.

[GregW]

When it comes to sheer toxicity I'll leave mother nature with the grand prize. Look up the geologically significant mass extinctions for examples.