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Old 02-13-2009, 05:22 AM
 
Location: T or C New Mexico
2,600 posts, read 2,316,031 times
Reputation: 607

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Quote:
Originally Posted by PrescottAZ View Post
being called a "troll" becuase I posted a question someone didn't happen to like isn't disagreement, it's just someone being rude.


FYI I never called you anything, this is my quote:
""My personal opinion of this thread? it is troll. just to see what people can pick up.""
BIG DIFFERENCE
Rude? yeah right. I hope if you move here, you can find your group of gun toting neo-cons to pal around with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PrescottAZ View Post
Mortimer: I don't mind disagreement. In my opinion, however, being called a "troll" becuase I posted a question someone didn't happen to like isn't disagreement, it's just someone being rude. As you can see, I am very new to the forum. I guess I expected better and maybe that's on me. If you think it appropriate to call people names because you think their question should not have been asked, then you do. We will just disagree.

EnjoyEP: I cannot thank you enough. Your response was thoughtful, comprehensive and clear. After reading it, I feel I have a much better understandiing of the political climate in New Mexico than I did originally and I'm thrilled my worst fears are groundless. I agree it sounds like a great place to live. I already knew the landscape and culture were wonderful.

Thanks to all of you that took the time to comment. It has been very helpful and this forum is clearly is a valuable resource I just wish it didn't have that bit of unfriendly undercurrent, especially if you ask a question one of the "veterans" happens to think is inappropriate.
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Old 02-13-2009, 07:03 AM
 
2,857 posts, read 6,708,825 times
Reputation: 1748
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnjoyEP View Post
I tend to observe that largely the composition of the Democratic Party is that of co-existing "interest groups" such as: labor/teachers unions, university academics, pro-abortion advocates and large percentages of certain ethnic groups including African Americans/blacks, Hispanics, as well as college students.
The correct term is "pro-choice", just as "pro-life" folks prefer not to be called "anti-women's-rights".
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Old 02-13-2009, 07:15 AM
 
Location: T or C New Mexico
2,600 posts, read 2,316,031 times
Reputation: 607
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnjoyEP View Post
This is an interesting question - and one that comes up on the forum from time to time. I am a pretty politically-involved individual in my "real life", so I have some observations as it relates to NM liberalism (or any other political bent):

1. For the purposes of my dialogue, I am going to utilize "Republicans" and "conservatives" a bit in conjunction, as obviously most identify the GOP as the major political party with conservatives. Similarly, I will utilize "Democrats" and "liberals" a bit in conjunction, as obviously most identify currently the Dems as the major political party with liberals.

2. I tend to observe that largely the composition of the Republican Party typically is that of joint-ideology (with exceptions of course - eg: "RINOs" - typically an ideology of low taxes, limited government, strong military, traditional conservative values - or - "social conservatism). Whereas, I tend to observe that largely the composition of the Democratic Party is that of co-existing "interest groups" such as: labor/teachers unions, university academics, pro-abortion advocates
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnjoyEP View Post
and large percentages of certain ethnic groups including African Americans/blacks,
WRONG: New Mexico QuickFacts from the US Census Bureau

PRO-CHOICE, NOT "pro-abortion advocates"
Your analogy is "tainted and skewed" at best.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republican_In_Name_Only
RINO, poor analogy, there isn't any in new mexico:
http://www.sos.state.nm.us/

Quote:
Originally Posted by EnjoyEP View Post
Hispanics, as well as college students.

---

Having established this...

It seems to me that as others have stated, New Mexico tends to skew a bit more towards social conservatism - especially as it relates to gun rights, etc. - and more towards fiscal liberalism.

HOWEVER...even that is somewhat distorted.

Gary Johnson was the (fairly popular) governor of the state before until-very-recent-extremely popular current guv (D) Bill Richardson. Johnson was a fairly conservative Republican, however, skewed more towards libertarianism in some issues (he was a legalized drug advocate, for example, which puts him at odds with many Republicans - and Demos for that matter). However, fiscally he was much more conservative than Richardson. Yet, both were fairly popular (although Richardson even more so).

New Mexico is goofy like that.

I would say that New Mexico as a whole goes more Democratic (eg: "liberal") because of the large Hispanic population dominating the state voting that way for issues like illegal immigration and preferring more government spending / aide. These folks are voting Democrat just as the folks living in ultra-liberal Santa Fe or Taos, yet, are doing so in many respects for completely different reasons than their counterparts in those more East Coast-classically liberal towns.

*(Of course this is probably the time to caveat this in that certainly I am speaking in generalities. You have to do that when analyzing a state's political leanings. For instance, Michael Steele is a rock-ribbed conservative Republican, but that doesn't mean that 95% of all voting black folks in the US voted for the Democrat in 08).

The Hispanic populace of the state largely is anti-gay marriage, etc., and leans more towards pro-life; the Santa Fe crowd largely would be strongly pro-choice and pro-gay marriage. Yet both groups vote Democrat.

As others have mentioned, it is a state largely defined by its "zones" - largely Northern NM very Democratic, Central (eg: Albuquerque) fairly mixed although more Democratic in tilt, and South more conservative / Republican although semi-mixed too.

Northern New Mexico just has, again, Santa Fe and Taos, more of the what I would definite classic-New England liberals.

But Northern New Mexico also has an incredible aged history with families of long, long, long time New Mexicans (or native New Mexicans) who have voted Democratic essentially their whole lives. Many continue to vote that way simply because "that's how we have always voted".

While there assuredly are conservatives/GOP'ers living in Santa Fe and/or Taos, I would say those would be the two towns in the state where you'd really feel like a fish out of water if you had a Bobby Jindal in '12 sign up.

Central NM (eg: Albuquerque) is very odd. You've got Kirtland Airforce Base - heavily conservative / Republican employees and residents obviously. Many of these folks gravitate towards the Northeast Heights and portions of the West side. You've got TONS of military contractors (Boeing, Sandia National Labs, North. Grum., etc.) - again, heavily conservative / Republicans in those areas.

Yet, Albuquerque also has UNM with the large liberal/Demo base that colleges almost always provide. The areas surrounding UNM residentially draw quite a few liberals/Demos, Downtown as well. And then in the Southeast/Southwest, again, a huge Hispanic presence that votes Democratic too, although for much different reasoning than their counterparts by UNM. Rio Rancho - the biggest burb of ABQ - is rather mixed (lots of NE transplants that bring liberal views but also lots of conservatives).

In Albuquerque, if you have a "I love Goldwater" or a "I love McGovern" sticker on your car, you'll have many others like you. I will note though, being a Republican in a Democratic area of ABQ (or vice/versa) is much different than being a Republican in a heavily Democratic area of Boston, or being a Democrat in a heavily Republican area of Alabama. People'll argue politics in the city, and sure, a few yard signs get stolen, but overall it is a fairly laid-back, friendly, and calm political climate (amongst the citizens, that is).

Look at Marty Chavez, ABQ's mayor. He's pretty darn liberal in some areas, but then he's more pro-business / pro-growth than you'd typically associate with a "classic liberal Democratic mayor". He's like Albuquerque metro - tilts more Democratic / liberal, but overall fairly moderate in the wash.

Republicans have a grip in Southern and Eastern New Mexico still, fueled much by the rural areas in the towns that have a very anti-big government stance, as well as large military presences (such as White Sands, Alamogordo, Clovis, etc.).

I wouldn't say this area is a lock for GOP'ers though, as the huge numbers of Hispanics in the area - again largely voting on issues like illegal immigration and favoring more government spending / aide, are offsetting some of the GOP presence.

However, again, I would say that in most areas of Southern / Eastern New Mexico, no matter your political views / party-affiliations, you'll find many like you and even if you don't offhand, you'll be largely left alone. People are just in general too laid back to get all angry at you about how your car's bumper sticker goes.

---

SUMMARY:

I would say that New Mexico has virtually no chance to become a "New Jersey" of the Southwest any time soon.

Look at taxes as a major issue. The more "classic Northeast liberal" doesn't particularly mind larger government spending eg: fairly high taxation, frankly, because for the most part, they can afford it. However, Democrats in New Mexico would be committing political suicide trying to blindly increase spending/taxes...as the people wouldn't allow huge tax increases the way they do in the Northeast...they simply couldn't afford it.

Whether GOP or Dem, it seems like people in New Mexico surely do have a passion for "fairness" and thus seem to genuinely want to debate each politician, each issue, etc. Sure, the Democratic New Mexican may have a different perception of "fair" to the Republican one, however, all seem to largely be willing to be engaged and participate in the dialogue. Thus, it just seems hard to believe that any time soon the state would sweep largely to the left (or, for that matter, to the right).

I will put this another way: if you want to really hack off a Republican / conservative, talk about the "Fairness Doctrine". In the Northeast, you'll get a lot of support among the citizenry that votes Democratic for the "Fairness Doctrine". In the state of New Mexico, outside of Santa Fe, even among lifelong Democrats you'll not get a lot of public support for something like the "Fairness Doctrine".

Another way of saying this: Republicans in New Mexico will NOT just support an issue or a politician just because they have an "R" by their name, and Democrats in New Mexico are largely the same to the "D"s. Even though Bernalillo County has numerous more registered Democrats than Republicans, Heather Wilson (semi-moderate, semi-conservative) Republican would continually get re-elected to the US House largely composed by ABQ metro.

***The one thing I will say about New Mexicans...they are fiercely, fiercely loyal at re-electing folks. That is why a rock-ribbed conservative Republican like Pete Domenici was re-elected Senator since seemingly the 1700s, yet, equally rock-ribbed liberal Democrat Bingaman also is always counted on to be re-elected to the Senate.

This is what somewhat breeds the corruption that New Mexico government has become somewhat known for. Not as pervasive and horribly corrupt as, say, Illinois, but a LOT of "good ol' boy"..."this is how we do it in NM" kind of establishment corruption. Folks kept re-electing and re-electing "Uncle" Manny Aragon, and stuff like that is where the corruption really comes up. Now, you are seeing it with long-time NM pol Richardson. It just is what it is.

The state is often blindly loyal to its elected officials, often times to its own detriment.

Really though, I love politics in New Mexico. They are fascinating. As a conservative, I don't think you'd have many issues at all living in NM. No New Jersey-morphing any time soon, and frankly, even though taxes may be a tick higher than AZ, after the cost of living thing is factored in, you'd likely have a lower cost of living in general. People are just so laid back and friendly in most areas of the state, whether you are a GOP'er, a Dem, or whatever, you might find a place for a good, hearty debate, but also a mutual cold cerveza .

Last edited by highdesertmutz; 02-13-2009 at 07:30 AM..
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Old 02-13-2009, 08:04 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
5,548 posts, read 16,041,839 times
Reputation: 2756
mutz, yer making me dizzy with the quoted text ....

... spin ...

............. spin ...

....................... spin ...

................................. < urp! >


PrescottAZ wrote:

> Mortimer: I don't mind disagreement. In my opinion, however, being called a "troll"
> .... I am very new to the forum. ... We will just disagree.

> Thanks to all of you that took the time to comment. It has been very helpful .... I just wish it
> didn't have that bit of unfriendly undercurrent, especially if you ask a question one of the
> "veterans" happens to think is inappropriate.

You're being vetted. The best thing to do is stand back and read the posts like a disinterested party
and see if the questions asked are being answered. If people seem to take offense, but still answer
your questions then just go with it and ask more and ask them why they think that way or something.

While it's possible to interpret your original post as being trollesqe, I didn't agree, but reading mutz's
response, I *did* find it right on the mark. IMO, you should have focused on the details of the
response, which were very good, and not focused on the "troll" thing.

Admittedly, I found the original post quite odd in that worrying about the politics of the area is
way down my list of important things to worry about when considering relocation, but in the
original post, it seemed to be the top consideration.

ASKING about it, OTOH, makes perfect sense like asking about what the winter weather is
like or if you need to know Spanish. Some of the stuff people ask about get tedious, but just
because someone is ignorant, doesn't mean they are stupid.

Asking the "Spanish" question is like asking the "male arousal" question in the nudist discussion
groups.(*) The regulars just <sigh> and answer the question (again).

:
:
:

(*) for the prurient among you, YES, I have perused nudist discussion groups. When I first
was exposed to the internet via readnews in 1991, I couldn't help myself. The "male arousal"
question would get asked, at least, weekly. I read the group because I couldn't really imagine
what these people would have to talk about. I found that it was just about the most boring
group that there was. [alt.tasteless], OTOH, was EXTREMELY good ( had a high bandwidth ).

Last edited by mortimer; 02-13-2009 at 08:37 AM..
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:33 AM
 
Location: Metro Milwaukee, WI
3,198 posts, read 12,683,903 times
Reputation: 2241
High desert -

Quote:
Originally Posted by highdesertmutz View Post
Perhaps I wasn't clear when I was writing that. When I was giving the breakdown of mainstream Democratic voters in the US, I was more referencing in that light key Democratic voters nationally...not solely confined to the state of New Mexico.

Certainly no argument to the facts of course that there isn't a large percentage of blacks/African Americans in NM.

Quote:
Originally Posted by highdesertmutz View Post
PRO-CHOICE, NOT "pro-abortion advocates"
Again, you are looking for a fight/argument where no hostility was intended.

If you prefer the label as "pro-choice" then fine, you are certainly welcome to utilize it. I by no means was trying to drum up an abortion debate on this forum...plenty of those in the Politics & Other Controversies section.

I think you can tell by my post that it wasn't pro-any group or anti-any group in terms of Repubs v. Dems, just more or less analyzing the situation as I see it and observe it in NM.

You can drive yourself nuts getting riled up about getting too fine-tooth-comb'd about labels. For instance, instead of "pro-baby's life" I wrote "pro-life". If I wrote "pro abortion" versus "pro-choice", it wasn't meant as a "shot". I barely dwelled on the topic or group.

Quote:
Originally Posted by highdesertmutz View Post
Your analogy is "tainted and skewed" at best.
Republican In Name Only - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

RINO, poor analogy, there isn't any in new mexico:
New Mexico Secretary of State Mary Herrera
I don't even understand your points here, much less referencing a Wikipedia page that defines what the slang term of "RINO" is and the NM Secretary of State's page??

And again, this was just my point indicating that while *typically* people that vote Republican or are Republicans nationally do so more out of a joint ideology, I was providing instances where there certainly *are* people - typically what other Republicans would refer to as "RINOs" - that vote Republican but don't share that ideology in all cases.

Its the same way where while I would state that *most* black folks vote Democratic, certainly there are exceptions.
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Old 02-13-2009, 09:56 AM
 
Location: Canada
2,140 posts, read 6,449,979 times
Reputation: 972
And yet, 'pro-abortion' is very telling and will skew how folks read and respond to your posts, EP.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:19 AM
 
Location: Metro Milwaukee, WI
3,198 posts, read 12,683,903 times
Reputation: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by lalahartma View Post
And yet, 'pro-abortion' is very telling and will skew how folks read and respond to your posts, EP.
OK, this is the third comment I have received to this.

Certainly the last thing I was trying to touch on here was a nerve - honestly - it appears though I have done just that. Folks, folks, folks. I think if you honestly read my 3-kajillion word post to the OP's inquiry, you can tell that I wasn't being "pro-conservative" or "pro-liberal" or anti anything. Was just trying to analyze.

Frankly, I think my post was far, far, far, FAR less hostile / argumentative than almost everyone here when it comes to political banter.
-----
Look, since everyone is making such a point of getting riled up because I stated (not hostily or argumentatively in the least mind you) "pro abortion advocacy group" instead of "pro-choice" group, this is a quick story - wasn't going to go down this road here as this is not a place to debate abortion - but since I am being taken to the mat here, maybe this can provide some kind perspective (and show that by no means was I being "argumentative" in just a couple words of a 3-kajillion word post):

I was adopted as a 3-month old child by a loving, terrific set of parents. My birth-mother gave me up for adoption when she reared me at age 15. While I am now in my early 30s, I am so very grateful to this day, and realize that had she exercised her "woman's rights", than ol' EnjoyEP would have been prematurely dead, not entered this world, not had the pleasure of living the life I have been honored to live to this point, many flaws and all.

My loving, great parents would've been denied my son-dom (which I think would have for the most part horrified them, outside of some occasional shenanigans!), my great and loving wife I never would've met (and even though she probably would've been better off with another fella, had never met me). Even more so, my two, beautiful, loving little ones who I couldn't love any more or be any more proud of, would never had entered the world too.

While under federal laws at the time of my birth, my birth-mother would've assuredly been exercising her "woman's rights" had she aborted me, I guess I would've at that point felt more that she was "pro abortion" than "pro choice".

So with all due respect here folks, I guess subconsciously if I feel some abortion advocacy groups are "pro abortion" than "pro choice", and I use that terminology, than so be it.

I think if you are all fair and honest, you can look at my post and other 3-kajillion posts and see that I am by no means a "flamer" and while always up for a good, honest debate, I throw less stones than most here.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:22 AM
 
Location: Albuquerque
5,548 posts, read 16,041,839 times
Reputation: 2756
Forum definition of abortion: RAT-HOLE topic.

What was a decent thread is spiraling out of control even as we watch.

If anyone says that word again in this thread, I'm outta this one
and ya-ll are on your own.

I'll go further than that. Anyone speaking the word that should
not be named in any of the New Mexico forums - ever - is
succumbing to early dementia.

Have an opinion? Fine.

You know what opinions are like ... take them to
http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-philosophy/
http://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...controversies/
http://www.city-data.com/forum/great-debates/
--> your choice <--
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:25 AM
 
Location: Metro Milwaukee, WI
3,198 posts, read 12,683,903 times
Reputation: 2241
Quote:
Originally Posted by mortimer View Post
Forum definition of abortion: RAT-HOLE topic.

What was a decent thread is spiraling out of control even as we watch.

If anyone says that word again in this thread, I'm outta this one
and ya-ll are on your own.

I'll go further than that. Anyone speaking the word that should
not be named in any of the New Mexico forums - ever - is
succumbing to early dementia.

Have an opinion? Fine.

You know what opinions are like ... take them to
http://www.city-data.com/forum/religion-philosophy/
http://www.city-data.com/forum/polit...controversies/
http://www.city-data.com/forum/great-debates/
--> your choice <--

I agree fully.

I think what was designed by me as a totally analytical / totally un-argumentative comment about 3-kajillion other ones was totally taken out of context; if I was responsible for that, certainly I will accept part of that responsibility and just ask that folks really, truly consider the full context of my post.

Everyone's had a chance to kick me about that one sufficiently. Let's move back on topic.
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Old 02-13-2009, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Where I live.
9,191 posts, read 21,811,816 times
Reputation: 4933
Quote:
Originally Posted by EnjoyEP View Post
OK, this is the third comment I have received to this.

Certainly the last thing I was trying to touch on here was a nerve - honestly - it appears though I have done just that. Folks, folks, folks. I think if you honestly read my 3-kajillion word post to the OP's inquiry, you can tell that I wasn't being "pro-conservative" or "pro-liberal" or anti anything. Was just trying to analyze.

Frankly, I think my post was far, far, far, FAR less hostile / argumentative than almost everyone here when it comes to political banter.
-----
Look, since everyone is making such a point of getting riled up because I stated (not hostily or argumentatively in the least mind you) "pro abortion advocacy group" instead of "pro-choice" group, this is a quick story - wasn't going to go down this road here as this is not a place to debate abortion - but since I am being taken to the mat here, maybe this can provide some kind perspective (and show that by no means was I being "argumentative" in just a couple words of a 3-kajillion word post):

I was adopted as a 3-month old child by a loving, terrific set of parents. My birth-mother gave me up for adoption when she reared me at age 15. While I am now in my early 30s, I am so very grateful to this day, and realize that had she exercised her "woman's rights", than ol' EnjoyEP would have been prematurely dead, not entered this world, not had the pleasure of living the life I have been honored to live to this point, many flaws and all.

My loving, great parents would've been denied my son-dom (which I think would have for the most part horrified them, outside of some occasional shenanigans!), my great and loving wife I never would've met (and even though she probably would've been better off with another fella, had never met me). Even more so, my two, beautiful, loving little ones who I couldn't love any more or be any more proud of, would never had entered the world too.

While under federal laws at the time of my birth, my birth-mother would've assuredly been exercising her "woman's rights" had she aborted me, I guess I would've at that point felt more that she was "pro abortion" than "pro choice".

So with all due respect here folks, I guess subconsciously if I feel some abortion advocacy groups are "pro abortion" than "pro choice", and I use that terminology, than so be it.

I think if you are all fair and honest, you can look at my post and other 3-kajillion posts and see that I am by no means a "flamer" and while always up for a good, honest debate, I throw less stones than most here.
As usual, the voice of reason once again, EP.

Good post!

This thread isn't nearly as nasty as I figured it would get, and the greatest function of this forum is the "ignore" one! There are certain posters whose comments are nearly always nasty....and it's nice not to have to read them at all!
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