Four Corners Monument in da wrong place

[Lovehound]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

So, if you lay down sprawled across the Four Corners monument, are you in four states at once? Geographically, no. Legally, yes.

Actually the only thing that counts in borders is the legal definition. The legislators laid down the coordinates and they surveyors drove a stake in the ground. From that point on the stake defined the geographic definition of what state you are in. So both geographically and legally if you spread out there you are in four states.

The only thing that's wrong here is the definition that it was supposed to be at 37° N, -109° W. That was superseded by where the surveyor drove the stake in the ground. Once the stake was in the ground it was the definition of where the state boundaries were.

It's not scientifically logical, but like a lot of things logic does not work here, unless it's lawyer logic.

Researching this topic has amazed and amused me. I never realized how fuzzy the state borders are. I picked just a few examples but I bet if you really dug into it you'd find inconsistencies all over the US, and all over the world for that matter.

I'm really glad I solved my conundrum about why the UT-AZ border sign was in the wrong place!

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by jazzlover

Great post. As I said earlier, the surveying and geographical community has known for years that the Four Corners Monument is not at an accurate location, but--as you point out--there are few section corners, etc. that are, either. Since the monument is the legally accepted point where the four states meet (along with the state boundaries emanating from it), neither the monument nor those state lines are going to be moving--not unless a Federal Court judge decides to decree that they will.

I am not a surveyor, but I work with these issues on nearly a daily basis in my work. Just one of those "ho-hum" things that people don't think about until somebody makes a news story out of it. So, if you lay down sprawled across the Four Corners monument, are you in four states at once? Geographically, no. Legally, yes.

While the geographical vs legal argument is a rather light issue in this case, (because all touching properties are government owned) the real problems begin to emerge when privately owned land parcels abut the publicly owned ones. Consider that a blue stake survey conducted on a privately owned land parcel, for the purposes of residential property transfer. For instance, the new survey is performed using the GRS 1980 by an independent surveyor while the adjacent state or federally owned parcel was defined using NAD 1927, and the potential for litigation becomes real. I personally know of a privately owned land parcel that is in unincorporated Dona Ana County, which has it's own title deed with coordinate geometry that puts about 20% of the parcel into the Jornada Experimental Range. The JER hasn't told this land owner that his property is that far into his land, but I am sure that if JER were to need that privately owned land parcel for an easement, one hell of a court battle would ensue.

[Lovehound]

There isn't any geographical argument. Borders are man made. The law decides where the borders are. If geography and law disagree then the law that takes precedence. That's what this mistaken location of Four Corners Monument is all about. The monument isn't where they thought it was, but wherever the monument is that's where the four states intersect.

I don't mean to imply that if you moved the monument then the borders would move too. If you moved the monument then the borders would still be where the monument was.

The geography in this case is irrelevant, although I agree that there are many situations where the issue is far less distinct.

[mike0421]

Originally Posted by Lovehound

There isn't any geographical argument. Borders are man made. The law decides where the borders are. If geography and law disagree then the law that takes precedence. That's what this mistaken location of Four Corners Monument is all about. The monument isn't where they thought it was, but wherever the monument is that's where the four states intersect.

I don't mean to imply that if you moved the monument then the borders would move too. If you moved the monument then the borders would still be where the monument was.

The geography in this case is irrelevant, although I agree that there are many situations where the issue is far less distinct.

I am just wondering how the law would adjudicate a matter like the following:



One survey is a PLSS public lands survey, the other, a private land survey. Look at the overlap. It's pretty amazing, isn't it? There is 190 feet of disputed land here, as far as I can see. I wonder if anyone is aware.

[jazzlover]

Originally Posted by mike0421

I am just wondering how the law would adjudicate a matter like the following:



One survey is a PLSS public lands survey, the other, a private land survey. Look at the overlap. It's pretty amazing, isn't it? There is 190 feet of disputed land here, as far as I can see. I wonder if anyone is aware.

I've seen a lot of these cases get litigated in court. Eventually, a judge will decree where the boundary line is.

[Lovehound]

I'm glad I'm not one of the property owners!

[Moeman2008]

The monument is correct. There is no mistake. Modern lines of Latatidue and Longitude from the apparently back-slapping NGS are changing every few years. To identify the Lat-Long correctly for the monument, the NGS would first need to reference it to Washington Meridian as its position was accepted in 1850 which was the legal reference for all land surveys in the US in 1868 not the Greenwich Meridian which modern Lat and Long positions are based. Even so, take a transit, an ephemeris, an 8 place table, a pen, some scratch paper and at night calculate what longitude you’re at (based on the Washington Meridian), in the middle of the southwestern desert. Good luck. For some guy with a GPS to malign the original surveyor and to declare his work a mistake is really offensive. It's silly to say that imaginary lines that the NGS even can't seem to stop shifting almost on a yearly basis should control over a long established, correctly placed, professionaly surveyed monument.

[Lovehound]

Your GPS has a configuration setting to select which datum you wish to use, or at least mine does. I would be surprised if the indicated location for different datums is off by two miles, but I'll admit that I'm surprised frequently. Before this topic I didn't know that "straight" state borders are not necessarily straight.

By the way, I'm pretty sure that the GPS datum setting is intended to allow you to match your GPS reading with the datum of the map you are using.

In any case the actual latitude and longitude are not important. It's the legal precedent that governs where the state borders are, and the Four Corners Monument is the legal reference point.

[Moeman2008]

The monument has an error of 0.00'. It is where it is supposed to be. Don't listen to some GIS guy prattle on about a GPS location. That's not how property is surveyed.

[Moeman2008]

GPS only really works in WGS 84/Nad83 datum. All other datum that is clicked to on with a GPS receiver is a conversion using a guesstamation or guess and by god translation. I have never heard of one that converts to the 1850 legal basis for PLSS surveys.