About the Rainbow Gathering in NM (camper, law, shop)

[DOUBLE H]

Originally Posted by rruff

Lattes? I think you are seriously out of touch...

You're right! The last time I got gas in Cuba, and it was just a few months ago, the station I stopped in for gas just had plain old coffee-Darn!

[rruff]

Originally Posted by DOUBLE H

I am. I also believe that once you have X amount of people, you are required to get a permit from the forest service. I don't believe the cost is going to put any group into bankruptcy.

I am certain that most of the participants would be happy to donate a reasonable fee for the use of the land. The problem is that the NFS would simply deny the permit, or charge an insane amount up front... which of course could not be paid because there is in fact no Rainbow Family orgainization to gather money from members. Everyone is a member... yes you too. No one is denied access or participation... which is why there will be some obnoxious and inconsiderate people there as well. I'm sure they cause considerably more trouble at the Gathering itself, than they do in the surrounding communities.

The great majority of people at the gathering will be among the nicest people you've met. It is after all the main theme.

The reason why the Gatherings are held in places where there are only small (if any) towns nearby is because they wish to be as little "bother" to as few people as possible. Of course most of the people in these small towns will not like it because people in small towns wish to live a peaceful existance and be away from everything... else they'd live in the city. So for a few weeks, their lives will be "disrupted"... by strange people passing through... but it really isn't a big deal. It is far from the worst thing that could happen. Mostly, it gives them something to talk and complain about. Actual incidents of note are extremely rare.

And if they use the opportunity to actually check out the festivities, they might even have a lot of fun. In fact it is nearly impossible not to... except for harrassment by the "authorities" who are tasked with trying to make as many people as possible wish they hadn't showed up.

And local merchants with enough foresight to stock up on bulk foods (like 50lb bags of beans and rice) could make a killing.

[mikereznm]

Originally Posted by tecpatl

I think the primary objection here should be that the size of the gathering overwhelms the towns nearby...but most of what I'm reading in this thread is overblown (destroy, devastate, on and on) verging on the hysterical. This makes other, more sensible, objections also seem unreasonable and reactionary by association and thus is really counterproductive.

I also read the Wyoming thread and found that similar in tone and content, including a couple of the same posters that appear on the NM thread. There were tons of second and third hand horror stories, but little real evidence that "locusts" were decending on the area used by this group.
One particularly angry and vocal woman posted that her son "had pictures" of the devastation wrought by the rainbow people, yet when asked to produce them she hatched a long story about her son moving 3 or 4 times, working all the time, and couldn't bear to impose on him to find the pics yadda-yadda. I know people who have pics of UFO's landing in their back yard, too, but they're just too busy to get back to me with them...Sheesh. "I have PROOF...but I left it in the car....

The fact is, these people have a right to gather on Federal land. It appears they make plans and provide a crude infrastructure to accomodate themselves and that they make a significant effort to clean up afterward.
The only quote I read (from a newspaper account) from a USFS person was a quibble he had about whether the rainbow cleanup crew was "restoring" as they said, or just "cleaning up" as he interpreted their work. Nothing about a big mess to clean up, nothing about "devastation" etc., only a difference of opinion about what to call the clean up effort. Of course there is going to be a footprint left on the land by such a gathering, but that's the story of this world..people leave their tracks behind. Some national parks are established to celebrate this...think Mesa Verde. The only way to avoid this is to wall off the land.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want this gathering near me, just because of the size of the crowd, but it's a free country and these folks have a right to get together on the property owned by them and all of us. It's certainly not more damaging to the land than the logging programs operated at a loss to taxpayers by the forest service. The timber company's have a right to use the land, so says Congress and the USFS, and so do old and neo-hippies.
Take a deep breath and relax, people. It goes on for a week or so, I read, then it goes away. You'll get over it pretty quick, and they might spend some money in town.

When a National Park was established near my lifelong home in Michigan (Sleeping Bear Dunes Natl Lakeshore Sleeping Bear Dunes National Lakeshore (U.S. National Park Service) ) the outraged local folks widely predicted it would attract hippie and tree hugger types who would "come to town with a 5 dollar bill and one pair of underwear and not change either one". The park is now the number 1 attraction for visitors to the area.
The rainbow gathering thing is different, of course, but the near hysterical "debate" reminded me of that funny, yet boneheaded, line.

Thanks for a voice of reason.

[rruff]

Originally Posted by sjbasin

Those who can't quite visualize what is going to happen must not be familiar with that part of New Mexico or they wouldn't be dismissing this gathering as a non-impact event.

I've been to two Rainbow Gatherings, so my visualization is based upon actual seeing and experience.

[DOUBLE H]

Originally Posted by rruff

Compared to what logging companies, ranchers, 4 wheelers, people dumping trash, stupid campers, etc, do to these "fragile ecosystems", yes... it is trivial. If you don't believe me, then check it out.

We agree on more than what you might think!

The third job I had was working for the USFS as a laborer, in the summer/fall/early winter of 1968. I took it right after graduating from high school. I worked for the San Juan; we based out of Durango. When I worked with the big maintainers with the blades down on the road I would clear the rocks and mounds of dirt and gravel out of the drainage culverts. We would cover 2 to 4 miles a day. I would also be on cattleguard crews, on a crew with two other men, pulling out old cattleguards and replacing them with new ones. And I also would clean campsites. I know how trashy peple are; hunters, campers, out of staters, in staters. I wish I had a dollar for every sack of beer bottles, whiskey bottles, food scraps, napkins, you name it that I bagged up, and took with me to dispose of in town. We covered a lot of territory and I go through that area a few times each summer.Whenever I do I always think of those months. Because for the first time in my life I worked with people who cared what they done for a living. They cared about the land. It was damn hard work but I loved it-all of it. I loved being outside, to work out in that 8000ft. thin air.

I didn't get rich, made all of $2.21 an hour, but I got to know some of the best people i ever meant- forest service employees; rangers, smokejumpers, the road crew people I worked with, etc. They cared about what they were doing, they cared about the environment.

rruff, if you look back to the start of this thread, go to the beginnings of it. The furthest thing in peoples minds when they got their degrees in forestry and range management was having to arm themselves while on the job. This issue was discussed by myself and Jazzlover.

This part of the government, IMO, has been underfunded for years, maybe decades. They have to arm themselves for a variety of reasons, probably the chief one being the illegals coming across the border to set up shop with their drug operations, and those guys are armed to the teeth. This isn't what the forest service people had in mind when they got their degrees and started their careers. Regarding the incident at a previous gathering where the paintball guns were used to keep a few hundred people away from them, I'll bet not one person who was involved from the forest service end of it didn't regret the incident taking place. The fact is though, they have enough to do without getting involved in handling an angry mob.

Their department is forestry. Not law enforcement. And they are being made out to be the bad guy. And that incident didn't get resolved out in the field, instead the incident got dumped into the lap of the ACLU.

[Poncho_NM]

"The Forest Service requires a free special use permit for every noncommercial group of 75 or more people that gathers on National Forest System lands."
Rainbow Family Gathering, Santa Fe National Forest - USDA Forest Service

[Mike Horrell]

Originally Posted by rruff

The great majority of people at the gathering will be among the nicest people you've met. It is after all the main theme.

Y'know, that doesn't make a darn bit of difference to the land that they
will literally trample.

[tecpatl]

Originally Posted by rruff

I have pictures of naked women dancing at a Rainbow Gathering... can I post those?

Jeez, you better not, rruff...apparently some people are horrified by naked women...I guess it hurts the trees or something.

[bradly]

I didnt think my post was rude one bit.

Anyways I mentioned that we should add another city to the New Mexico Page, Such as Farmingon.. Where its populated.. Things do go on there too! Such as this, WOuld have went into the "Sandoval County or Rio Rancho".

[rruff]

Originally Posted by Mike Horrell

Y'know, that doesn't make a darn bit of difference to the land that they will literally trample.

Believe it or not, tender footed humans have a much lower impact on the land than bovine herds. Or ATVs, 4WD trucks, etc.

Ever seen what happens to the few precious streams and stream beds when cattle are set loose? Are you upset about that?