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Old 07-07-2010, 11:09 AM
 
149 posts, read 302,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ThroatGuzzler View Post
I just recently came back from a trip to NYC, I have not been to the city since the early 90's, but the city has changed A LOT. I recall plenty of ethnic Italian neighborhoods in several (if not a majority) in the Bronx and especially Brooklyn. The recent visit in which I paid about 2 weeks ago really posed the question.. where the hell have the Italians gone? It seems like these neighborhoods are overwhelmingly Black and Latino (PR, Mexican, Central American). I was riding the R line into Brooklyn late one night and the only language spoken on the train was Spanish. It's a real shock to me since I remember this city being something COMPLETELY different in the early nineties compared to this day. I must have seen less than 10 Jews during my entire trip, the city seems overwhelmingly black nowadays. I am not trying to be racist, just pointing out what i've picked up. (Being the only non black person on a full train in east harlem really makes me wonder ... ) Where have the italians and the jews gone, and why were they pushed out in such a short amount of time?

I know this post will gain much flack, but i'm just looking for some insight here. It doesn't seem like New York anymore.
White people with money can NEVER be pushed out of anywhere. There's your answer. The money is the primary force, whiteness is secondary. Even with the complaints of gentrification in Harlem, the bottom line is money talks and walks and moves. People with power can take your space if they want it. They've done it for centuries. So if seeing a bunch of brown and black (likely poor) people annoy you, find out why the Jews and Italians CHOSE to leave. Chances are, nobody "pushed" them anywhere.

 
Old 07-07-2010, 11:14 AM
 
1,646 posts, read 2,608,375 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LuvLux2010 View Post
White people with money can NEVER be pushed out of anywhere. There's your answer. The money is the primary force, whiteness is secondary. Even with the complaints of gentrification in Harlem, the bottom line is money talks and walks and moves. People with power can take your space if they want it. They've done it for centuries. So if seeing a bunch of brown and black (likely poor) people annoy you, find out why the Jews and Italians CHOSE to leave. Chances are, nobody "pushed" them anywhere.
This post was dead on!
 
Old 07-07-2010, 11:17 AM
eek
 
Location: Queens, NY
3,576 posts, read 6,448,993 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
I hope this clarifies everything ...

The E, J and Z trains end at Sutphin and Archer which is technically "Central Jamaica" but it borders on South Jamaica. South Jamaica is a specific neighborhood. It is not the same as Southeast Queens, which comprises several neighborhoods. The blacks (Americans, Caribbeans and Africans) that live in Southeast Queens neighborhoods like St. Albans, Laurelton, Springfield Gardens, Rochdale and Rosedale take the E, J and Z trains to Sutphin and Archer, and then take buses to those distant neighborhoods. It is a brutal commute.

The F rides along Hillside Avenue and stops at several points in Jamaica: Sutphin & Hillside, Parsons & Hillside, 169th & Hillside and 179th & Hillside. The 169th Street station is actually split between two neighborhoods: Jamaica Hills to the north and Jamaica to the south of Hillside. The last stop on the F is 179th & Hillside is Jamaica Estates to the north and Hollis to the south. There are numerous bus connections at 179th St to Nassau County and other "whiter" parts of Queens which is why you may not see that many black people on the F. They are more likely to be on the E, J or Z.

All in all, Central Jamaica is very diverse. There aren't many blacks at all. I'd guess that it is primarily Latino. Jamaica Hills has lots of Arabs. Hollis between Jamaica & Hillside, and Woodhaven have many Guyanese Indians. Southeast Queens is probably 95% black, if not more. The people living in Southeast Queens are more suburban and drive, which is another reason why you may not be seeing blacks on public transportation.

Getting back to the OP. My old neighborhood in Southeast Queens was a nice mix of blacks and Jews. It turned all black over the course of 20 years, or so.
amen. now back to the OP's comments, lol. and back to watching espn to get the latest on lebron!
 
Old 07-07-2010, 11:19 AM
 
149 posts, read 302,884 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jordandubreil View Post
overall yes but the west african and black caribbean communities are growing also.

i notice alot of people tend to blame gentrification and yuppies of replacing blacks, but people completely ignore the black immigrants who are also replacing black americans in these areas.

bed stuy never had so much west indians then it did just 10 years ago, and when you go to harlem now it feels more west African/Caribbean then black american in my opinion when looking at the businesses on the street.
Yeah but Black immigrants aren't *pricing* anyone out of the neighborhood, and housing discrimination-if it were to hit anyone-would just as likely hit immigrants (particularly non-white immigrants) than Black Americans. I look at gentrification as the inaccessibility of a neighborhood (be it through classism/racism or some other "ism") by those that once lived there. Black immigrants simply don't have the numbers or the power to do that to any American group.
 
Old 07-07-2010, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Toronto
1,655 posts, read 5,089,585 times
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So what you're telling me is that there are basically no working class Italians left in the city? They're all multi-millionaire presidents of corperations?

I think i've come to the conclusion that it's basically the immigrants which are forcibly pushing out natives of a particular neighborhood forming their own ethnic enclave in it. No italians are even emigrating from Italy to the US anymore.
 
Old 07-07-2010, 11:30 AM
 
149 posts, read 302,884 times
Reputation: 92
Quote:
Originally Posted by jordandubreil View Post
overall yes but the west african and black caribbean communities are growing also.

i notice alot of people tend to blame gentrification and yuppies of replacing blacks, but people completely ignore the black immigrants who are also replacing black americans in these areas.

bed stuy never had so much west indians then it did just 10 years ago, and when you go to harlem now it feels more west African/Caribbean then black american in my opinion when looking at the businesses on the street.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThroatGuzzler View Post
So what you're telling me is that there are basically no working class Italians left in the city? They're all multi-millionaire presidents of corperations?
You basically leaped from A to Z here. I said money AND race were big factors in housing. Unless these poor Blacks and Browns are making WAY more money than these poor Italians (not bloody likely), OR unless they OWN these buildings and have formed secret organizations to keep Jews and Italians out (even less bloody likely), then Jews and Italians weren't *pushed* out. You should be asking why they chose to leave, if that's really the case at all. And let's be frank, Jews still own quite a few of these Brooklyn apts even if they aren't living there.
 
Old 07-07-2010, 11:32 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,511,458 times
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I posted this on another thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
There are still ethnic neighborhoods in the five boros. Many Italians shifted from BK to Staten Island, but there are still some in Whitestone & College Point, Queens; and Howard Beach, Brooklyn. There are Russians in southern Brooklyn and Forest Hills/Rego Park, Queens; still some Irish in Woodside, Queens; and Woodlawn, Bronx; Chinese in Chinatown; Jews in Holliswood and Hollis Hills, Queens; Orthodox Jews in Crown Heights, Williamsburg and Borough Park, Brooklyn; Dominicans in Washington Heights, various Latino groups in Spanish Harlem; and SEQueens is as black as is was when I moved away in 1985, except now it's more Caribbean black. Yes, a good number of people from all of these groups left the City for the 'burbs, southeast and exurbia but you must realize that back then, when you moved up ... you moved out. Now it's too expensive to come back

Anthony works in the grocery store
Savin his pennies for some day
Mama Leone left a note on the door
She said "Sonny move out to the country"
Ah but working too hard can give you
A heart attack, ack, ack, ack, ack, ack
You ought-a know by now
Who needs a house out in Hackensack?
Is that all you get for your money?

And it seems such a waste of time
If that's what it's all about
Mama if that's movin up then I'm movin out

~Billy Joel
 
Old 07-07-2010, 12:42 PM
 
Location: Greenwich, CT
151 posts, read 252,180 times
Reputation: 64
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThroatGuzzler View Post
So what you're telling me is that there are basically no working class Italians left in the city? They're all multi-millionaire presidents of corperations?

I think i've come to the conclusion that it's basically the immigrants which are forcibly pushing out natives of a particular neighborhood forming their own ethnic enclave in it. No italians are even emigrating from Italy to the US anymore.
Just go to Staten Island, Long Island, or Jersey Shore if you're in dire need of being surrounded by Italians.

The notion that there are no more Jews in New York, or that the city is overwhelmingly black is comical.
 
Old 07-07-2010, 01:15 PM
 
527 posts, read 865,070 times
Reputation: 545
I think as time passes people move on- I know during my grandparents & parents era's the family from Italy off the boat came to ellis Island, I think they started in asbury park and then spent many years in Harlem (My mom was very fond of her Harlem days growing up there) from what I heard there was MANY Italians back in harlem in those days- then I heard in the 50's they moved to Corona Queens for years- I know Corona was MAINLY Italian back in the day- I remember when I was still a kid (actually only 41 now) we still visited cousins in Corona & it was still very italian- Now I would say all of us are basically gone from there- You got that square by Spaghetti park by the Lemon Ice king where Parkside is (tuff tony still keeps that block nice - It is sad in a way that you lose some of that aura- But like someone else said, You dont get too many Italians migrating to the US anymore, So new immigrants are replacing the old ones - Traditions slowly fade, Grandparents die, No more Sunday dinners with all of your cousins and no one covers the fig tree no more Times they are a changing

Last edited by jackinyc; 07-07-2010 at 01:27 PM..
 
Old 07-07-2010, 08:59 PM
 
Location: Columbus,Ohio
1,014 posts, read 3,024,816 times
Reputation: 480
Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green View Post
The Italians and and other ethnic whites were pushed out or ethnically cleansed from the urban centers of the north during the 1950's to the 1990's. These urban ethnic Catholics were a looked at as a growing demographic problem and potential fifth column from the old WASP blue bloods. Jews on the other hand were used to being foreigners in another man's land. The Jews were more eager to assimilate and looked at assimilation as a marker of success. The ethnic Catholics resisted assimilation, remained in cohesive urban neighborhoods, organized themselves in troublesome labor unions and continued to speak their mother tongues. These urban Catholics were looked at as the greatest internal threat as the country exited WWII. These people were growing in power and were able to elect Kennedy as the President. They were poised to take over but it was not to be. Kennedy's assignation signaled that the USA was not going to become a Catholic country. Instead the Catholic would be the one's to shed their identity and become American consumers.


These urban areas were ethnically cleansed using both the the carrot and the stick. The stick was the Federal and foundation money that poured into the cities for federal housing project construction that was targeted for ethnic neighborhoods. Hundreds of these high rise federal projects remain in the formerly Catholic ethnic strongholds of the Bronx and Brooklyn. In addition federal money poured in for mortgage blockbusting operations as urban mortgages were targeted for southern blacks to flood urban areas. The carrot was the federal mortgages that were targeted for the cheap new suburban areas that would be white only and a refuge and a new way of life for the urban ethnics. The goal of this two pronged approach was to break up the ethnic neighborhoods and speed Americanization.


It was in the new suburban area where the ethnic Catholics would be cleansed of their identity, their languages, their religion, their cuisine and take on the identity of the American consumer. Instead of the tight-knit confines of the Catholic neighborhood they would be immersed in the banal, materialistic suburban way of living. TV played a huge role in social conditioning. Away from the close confines of the neighborhood these people would no longer identify with their ethnicity but would now be considered just "white".

1990's were at the tail end of this ethnic cleansing operation. The late 1980's/early 1990's crime wave finished the job. The ethnic cleansing has now been virtually completed in the Northern cities from Boston to NYC to Philly to Detroit to Chicago. While there still may be small pockets of ethnic whites in the Northern cities the few that remain have been culturally cleansed and debased of their power, their religion and way of life.

This is why the urban Catholic ethnic neighborhood in places like Queens, Brooklyn or the Bronx is now an endangered species.
Very imformative post. However I would like to make mention of another tactic beginning in the 1990s that was a tool for ethnic cleansing in the old school blue collar /working class city neighborhoods: the introduction of section 8 housing. It is very heartbreaking to see this happen especially when the ethnic whites really could not afford the suburban life style which in most cases it requires both mommy and daddy to each have their own car ( insurance , car payments , gas, maintainance etc.). Also it puts them in more danger of getting seriously injured or worse in traffic accidents (more cars on the already traffic clogged highways and roads). Now both parents have to work fulltime and that errodes family life in some ways. Gone are the days when only the husband had to work and the family could get away with owning just one car. It used to be if the wife needed the car for some reason she could drive the husband to the shop or factory and then pick him up after his shift. Many times he would take the bus, trolley, subway , el or train. Chances are they lived in a walkable neighborhood and she'd be able walk up to the "Avenue" to get the family's groceries and other incidentals. It was safe and she didn't have to worry about getting jumped or mugged by thuggish teens. Their social life often revolved around the neighborhood and parish.That was quite common before the 70s Also Americanizing these ethnics have given them a " keeping up with the Jones " mentality and they ended up spending more than they can afford and now they are likely to be in debt and are fearing bill collectors. Thanks to the "carrot"known as easy to obtain credit cards. Another "stick" I like to point out that caused alot of this ethnic cleansing is the out sourcing or off shoring of the manufacturing jobs which they made decent money. The jobs simply dried up and they left the old neighborhood and ended up in some bland suburb where their ethnic identity is seriously diluted. Meanwhile in the old neighborhood they have been replaced by newer immigrants and/or ethnic groups that are certainly not without their issues and some of the most serious of course are rapidly rising crime and poverty. No longer can the dad get the son a job where he works after the young man graduated high school and he gets set for life and there is no apprenticeships anymore. Nowadays you have to get a college education in order to get almost any job and that is extremely expensive. These young people are going to be paying off school loans for decades to come and they are truly are going to be in financial bondage. The old school ethnics are paying a severe price from the damage the government and the rich had done to them. America is supposed to be the land of freedom and opportunity but however many groups still suffer oppression from the rich and privileged and the old school blue collar ethnics is certainly one of them.

Last edited by otters21; 07-07-2010 at 09:31 PM.. Reason: mistakes
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