U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York > New York City
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 07-19-2010, 11:48 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,593 posts, read 10,295,624 times
Reputation: 2338

Advertisements

"Beginning in the late 1940s when it was made part of the Urban Renewal legislation by a Democratic Congress and signed into law by a Democratic president, redlining allowed banks to draw red lines around certain areas (usually those areas with a few Black families living among many White families) and not to offer mortgages in those areas."

You seem to imply that prior to the 1940s it was illegal for banks to refuse to lend in particular areas. That seems most unlikely to me. Do you have a cite? What "urban renewal legislation" are you referring to? The Housing Act of 1949 (which was sponsored by REPUBLICAN Robert Taft, doncha know) What part of that law specifically allows redlining?

Or do you mean theNational Housing Act of 1934?

I can't seem to find the text of that act. Some claim it led to redlining, but from looking at wiki its not clear to me if it was not in fact the lending agencies created by that law that chose to redline, without being required to do so by the act. The wiki articles in question are not particulary well sourced - it all seems to rely on claims from Jackson, Kenneth T. Crabgrass Frontier: The Suburbanization of the United States. New York: Oxford University Press, 1985. which I do not have a copy of handy, and I am not sure A. If the wiki cites are reasonable or B. If they are, if Jackson's claims of causality are reasonable.

There was a good bit of discussion in the 1970s and 1980s that tended to place causality for suburbanization on federal policy, in part to emphasize its artificiality (see also Jane Jacobs) I think by now we now that many of those shifts were more related to technological and larger economic shifts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 07-19-2010, 11:52 AM
 
Location: The Port City is rising.
8,593 posts, read 10,295,624 times
Reputation: 2338
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoltrane View Post
another poorly sourced wiki article with NPOV issues
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-20-2010, 10:38 PM
 
Location: Red Hook Brooklyn-winter Derby Line Vermont-summer
280 posts, read 1,047,440 times
Reputation: 160
If find this to be the definitive book on white flight in Brooklyn focusing on East New York.
Amazon.com: How East New York Became a Ghetto (9780814782675): Walter Thabit, Frances Fox Piven: Books.
As the title states this book focuses on ENY but similar reasons can be applied to Brownsville,East Flatbush and IMO Canarsie.
Also you should read The Power Broker by Robert Caro it's not just the story of Robert Moses but also provides alot of background on how alot of nabes in the city were affected by whte flight.It is one of the most well written thorough and interesting books I have ever read about anything.Long though.
I would think many here would give The Power Broker http://www.amazon.com/Power-Broker-R...9687331&sr=1-1 high praise for helping address some of your questions although aside from the Gowanus he built cutting off Red Hook from the rest of Brooklyn he pretty much focused on destroying certain areas of the Bronx...however he also did ALOT of good for the city.Very interesting cat for sure worthy of a book of over 1000 pages.
Also someone in this thread mentioned reading some Jane Jacobs,Her stuff is not really about white flight but more about keeping communities/neighborhoods alive.Good to get some Jane Jacobs in there too.

Last edited by nyctovt; 07-20-2010 at 10:46 PM.. Reason: spelling error/additional info.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2010, 01:44 AM
 
Location: Silicon Valley, CA
8,283 posts, read 5,835,102 times
Reputation: 5262
Don't forget the building of freeways/expressways, often financed by Federal funds through the interstate highway system, as a catalyst for decay of certain neighborhoods.

Building highways often resulted in the removal/demolition of m any homes/businsses in urban areas - the disruption often divided neighborhoods, loss of population due to removals/relocations, and subsequent decrease in economic activity. Not only that, the highways also made convenient conduits for people to move away from urban communities and go to suburbia.

Home loans were also biased in favor of new construction as opposed to existing urban stock.

Moses was notorious in his inflexibility in highway siting - Caro's book points out examples or alternative plans which could have minimized community or neighborhood disruption. His construction of the Cross Bronx Expressway pretty much helped devaste much of the South Bronx.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2010, 01:56 AM
 
Location: southern california
55,237 posts, read 72,402,860 times
Reputation: 47449
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mekitor View Post
The question is why did brokers and Realtors wanted the whites to move out and replace them with blacks? It just doesn't make any sense. What money do these Realtors get in doing such? You will think that making it more desirable they will get more money for the properties. So they ended it up loosing money then?
if lots of owners wana move they give lots of listings and do lots of sales, real estate agents make lots of money. that was easy wasnt it. its kinda like when lots of women get divorces, the lawyers have big parties and celebrate.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2010, 07:05 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,512,244 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by Woozle View Post
Blame it on the 'blockbusters' and the government all you want, but if not for the panicked selling by local racists, the neighborhoods wouldn't have had to flip over so quickly. White flight stemmed not from any insidious activity by the outsiders, but from the fear of a black neighbor, nothing more.
Fear of what? Consider 1960s Laurelton & Cambria Heights. The black families moving in were middle income and on an economic par with the white families already there. Most bought houses one one spouse's income. My family was middle income and moved from an apartment in another majority white neighborhood when we bought a house for our growing family. The market was flooded with homes after someone decided to go from house to house to convince white residents to sell before their property values dropped AND before they were the last white family on the block. They sold despite the fact that they loved their neighborhood and had no desire to leave. White people have told me this themselves. They sold and were cheated because the realtors then raised the price on the blacks!!! Someone was behind this. Who do you think it was?

@Walter Greenspan: If you have any facts about real estate practices in 1960s SEQueens, particularly Laurelton & Cambria Heights, I'd love for you to share
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2010, 07:12 AM
 
9,341 posts, read 24,680,636 times
Reputation: 4450
Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
@Walter Greenspan: If you have any facts about real estate practices in 1960s SEQueens, particularly Laurelton & Cambria Heights, I'd love for you to share :ok:
Nothing more than you've already posted.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2010, 09:22 AM
 
Location: NYC
2,296 posts, read 4,512,244 times
Reputation: 1082
Quote:
Originally Posted by queensgrl View Post
Fear of what? Consider 1960s Laurelton & Cambria Heights. The black families moving in were middle income and on an economic par with the white families already there. Most bought houses one one spouse's income. My family was middle income and moved from an apartment in another majority white neighborhood when we bought a house for our growing family. The market was flooded with homes after someone decided to go from house to house to convince white residents to sell before their property values dropped AND before they were the last white family on the block. They sold despite the fact that they loved their neighborhood and had no desire to leave. White people have told me this themselves. They sold and were cheated because the realtors then raised the price on the blacks!!! Someone was behind this. Who do you think it was?
I'd like to add one more tidbit to this. Very interestingly, neither Queens Village, which is adjacent to Cambria Heights, nor Rosedale, which is adjacent to Laurelton, flipped for many years. Cambria Heights and Laurelton sat -- mostly black -- throughout the 70s and some of the 80s, surrounded by white neighbors. Remember, to the east of these two neighborhoods is Nassau County.

I have always wondered why Laurelton & Cambria Heights flipped while the others did not. They weren't any different, no more expensive, had similar housing stock (except Laurelton's was pretty exceptional -- even today). This is why I believe that everything was engineered.

I think my parents and their friends were completely taken by surprise by the radical change that occurred so quickly in the neighborhood.

Anyone else live in Laurelton or Cambria Heights during this time? Please share your thoughts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2010, 11:39 AM
 
Location: New York
2,005 posts, read 4,272,070 times
Reputation: 1989
Default blockbuster article

Here is a NY Times piece on a convicted blockbuster. Looks like this was a middle level guy who took the fall for the real engineers of this failed urban renewal. This was engineered by the federal government. The fed was the one who underwrote all of these mortgages for the African Americans flooding the ethnic neighborhoods. The Fed also underwrote the mortgages for the Ethnic who were Americanized in the suburbs. With the Fed back the mortgages the flipping could move forward without a hitch. Neighborhoods could be flipped in less than 5 years. The key was that nobody cared if the buyers foreclosed as it would be absorbed by the fed.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 07-21-2010, 12:19 PM
 
11,287 posts, read 16,808,067 times
Reputation: 5517
Saying something more about the Brooklyn Dodgers, O'Malley also wanted the City to pay for a new stadium. Then Mayor Wagner refused. Obviously, O'Malley was no George Steinbrenner. The Giants also left for San Francisco while the Athletics left for Oakland.

It was not so much white flight as the new power and appeal of the West emerging. I believe O'Malley did try to amp up the crime in Flatbush as leverage- a tactic later used by Steinbrenner as well. I guess niether man noticed that your average sporting event comes with an army of police paid for by the local municipality.

As for white flight and the burbs, there is no doubt that some did not want to live near blacks- indeed there are middle class blacks who do not want to live near poor blacks and Hispanics. However, it was probably more a desire to leave crampt dwellings (think of Ralph Kramden's abode) and move into larger, modern dwellings with yards. Not an unappealing picture for anyone. And the 1950s was the first time that common folk were able to do so. Factor in automobiles becoming standard items, cheap gas, and the general forward-looking mood of the times.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:



Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > New York > New York City
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

2005-2018, Advameg, Inc.

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top