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Old 07-14-2010, 04:39 PM
 
49 posts, read 281,734 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
I understand the parkway, and can't forget Crotona, but the reality is that the community is densely built with old tenements, Morris Heights and University Heights, etc. The South Bronx was not much different except alot of the housing stock was burned to the ground and they subsequently built less dense, 2 and 3 family homes, with more open areas and greening.

Morrisania was a wasteland, and so was Hunts Point, but no longer. I don't think every square inch of any "bad" neighborhood is equally bad, however I see a trend of what communities are improving moreso than others...and what I see is a reshuffling of the deck..with middle/working class people leaving the Northern Bronx (decline), and the Central Bronx becoming the housing of last resort for the poor from within the Bronx and the 4 other boroughs (decline), and the South Bronx getting substantial investment and repositioning to the current and future working/middle class of NYC. Whether this trend continues who knows, but I doubt anyone can deny this is what is happening. The Grand Concourse south of 165th is getting all of the investment, with little to none North of it....
See, I disagree, Sobroguy. A lot of what you say is true but some of what you say is based on your perception of the neighborhood. And it's all about perception. I perceive it differently than you do. What you say about ghetto displaced residents making the Central Bronx their home is true, but let's not assume that it's solely the central Bronx that this is happening to. Don't think programs like section 8 are not being accepted south of 167th street and even decent more stable areas of The Bronx and even other boroughs. No one is omnipresent; we aren't everywhere and know everything that is going on in all of these neigjborhoods, which landlords are accepting section 8 and which aren't. I happen to know of a few people who've been priced of the Heights that are movibg to Mott Haven. And I'm not saying this to prove a point either. You want to view something interesting? Go to the NYCHA website and click on "NYCHA Developments." The link will take you to an interactive map that will show you where all the NYCHA developments are located in your neighborhood. It'll shock you. Not only does it pinpoint where the projects are but also where the rehabbed buildings--and let me tell you, Mott Haven is saturated with them, much like Morris Heights. Although I'll admit that Mott Haven is more desirable.

It's really all in your perception. You see me, I'm the type to often dismiss my perception that this neighborhood is on the come up because I live here and know that makes me somewhat biased. But my eyes are not deceiving me. I've literally been seeing a growing number of whites in the past couple of months. And they are young, and they're not residents from the hospital. I've been spotting them with greater frequency lately--in the laudroumats, in the supermarkets. It's weird. Can they be Fordham students who are deciding to wander below Fordham Road? Who knows. But I know what I'm seeing, and the sightings have been too many to dismiss. No, I'm not spotting mobs of them, but I am spotting one or two of them almost every time I go out--and they're not workers.

Maybe this may not be happening around Tremont or Burnside (in facts I've never seen it around there) but I'm seeing them around the Lebanon. And again, they are not employees.

In any event, it feels weird making such a big deal of white people coming to my neighborhood. The fact is that I don't care who comes in as long as the person works. Unfortunately, many people believe (minorities included) that a neighborhood is not in an upswing unless white people are present. Thus, aside from all other things I've mentioned, I'm making it a point to emphasize that, yes, I've been seeing white people in this "crappy" neighborhood. Does that mean that Starbucks is setting up shop soon? I doubt it. But this neighborhood is clearly seeing some changes as well. I'd say that the pioneers are already here. Won't gentrify tomorrow. And heck, who cares if it never gentrifies. But I can assure you that this neighborhood is becoming more diverse by the day.
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:20 PM
 
283 posts, read 441,162 times
Reputation: 292
Pardon me for being a contrarian, but:

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
The naysayers may disagree with me, but I see the Concourse turning around, albeit slowly. Gentrification above 167th is somewhat far off, but I'm certain that it'll happen. In fact, I suspect that that the pioneers are already here.

I have many reasons for believing this. Here are a few:

1. The city is considering designating the Grand Concourse a historic district, which means that it means to preserve the look of these buildings. Let's face it, though some buildings on the Concourse are in bad shape, their beautiful, and it's only a matter of time before they are discovered. .
I'm pretty sure they were discovered a long time ago...by the people that already live in them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
As you know, characterless buildings (ie. many buildings built after 1960) do not appeal to gentrifiers. The Concourse may have beat-up buildings, but characterless they are not. These buildings are beatiful and I have seen a good share of them being spruced up, including some on the side streets. .
But this doesn't necessairly mean and certainly doesn't require 'gentrification'. Buildings have been restored for years throughout the borough by Banana Kelly, SEBCO and others. My building in Hunts Point was renovated before the gentry ever heard of a Grand Concourse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
2. This is huge: You have access to both the east and the west side thanks to the 4 and D trains, respectfully. It's very convinient. .
This isn't a reason to believe the Concourse is 'gentrifying' already, it would be a selling point to the 'gentrifyers' before they start the 'gentrification'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
3. The Bronx Lebanon is building a new hospital building--not a new HIV or methadone clinic but a hospital. Sure, the neighborhood has shelters and tons of section 8 tenants, but if you notice, most of the new low-income buildings are being built elsewhere, in neihgborhoods like Morrisania and Melrose. .
I think this has less to do with some type of deliberate conspiracy to keep poor people away from the Concourse and more to do with the fact that there was way more space to build in Melrose/Morrisania than around the Concourse at the start of the "Bronx reniassance". Why would HPD construct a bunch of new buildings around a historic grand boulevard with an existing housing stock when there was a large volume of abandoned lots elsewhere?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
4. The Asian population is exploding. I hate making generalizations but I seldom come across Asian families (particularly Indians, Bangladeshi, and Chinese/Korean) who are on section 8.
I'm sure their out there, but I don't know of any. I happen to think that these ethnic groups have stabilizing effects on neighborhoods because they are, for the most part, hard-working and take their education very seriously. Again, I'm sorry for making generalizations. .
This is just ignorance. You don't *see* downtrodden Asians (they exist, trust) because they voluntarily immigrated here and most were likely already educated/upwardly mobile before they left their home country (the only type of people that could migrate halfway across the world to another country would undoubtedly be in the upper echelon back home). They are a relatively small self-selected population that generally had a different start in life than other groups. The correlation you're drawing has nothing to do with the fact that they are Asian so your implied comparison to other groups, which are larger and represent a greater cross-section of people, being on section 8 etc. is senseless.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
Also, from what I've observed, these types of ethnic groups often shy away from neighborhoods with high crime rates. At least, in great numbers. I'm sure every neighborhood has some of them. All I'm saying is that I seldom see them living in nabes like Morrisania, Morris Heights, and Hunts Point. Heck, not even in Fordham Manor or University Heights. .
Not in the Bronx but there's definetly large numbers of Asians moving in the hood in Queens, the borough where they are most concentrated. Jamaica, Hollis, South Ozone Park, Far Rockaway and Woodhaven are all considered bad neighborhoods that are increasingly Asian. What is your point?

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
5. Food selection in supermarkets and restaurants. These things are minor, to be certain, but you know something's up when Chinese stores suddenly start offering brown rice. The same goes for pizzarias who suddenly start offering fresh mozzarella. And supermarkets who suddenly start stocking arrugula, fresh mozzarella, prosciutto, and goat cheese (yes, goat cheese). There's even more beer variety. Little changes like this don't seem to mean much, but they do suggest that the neighborhood is changing.

Suddenly I'm seeing way more options in the supermarkets. Somewhat like that way a Gristedes opened in Washington Heights back in the early 2000s and started offering foods that were previously unseen in store shelves across the neighborhood.

6. More proffesionals in the subway in the morning. I've been spotting them more and more. Proffessional blacks and hispanics are taking the train in the morning. Two and a half years ago, when I first moved to Concourse by the Lebanon Hospital, I noticed that very proffessionals where taking the train in the mornings. You would only see high school students. Now that's not the case. I'm seeing many more working proffesionals. .
There's already "proffesionals" and other working people on EVERY line. Take the 6 train during rush hour and look around you!

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
12. The hospital staff that used to, for the most park, park their cars in garages are now parking them outside of the garages.

13. More and more people are beginning to accept that the Bronx is not the bombed out mess it once was. .
Anecdotal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
14. Finally, I'm even spotting white people. Though gentrification has more to do with class than race, this is a big one. Even if the white people moving are poor college grads with part-time jobs. .
Yay! White people! Surely massa will save our lowly borough!

Quote:
Originally Posted by InquiryMan View Post
This is nothing new, however. I've been spotting them for a while, but usually dismiss the sightings as insignificant. Normally, if I see a white person in the neighborhood, I usually assume one of the following:

a. that white person is visiting a minority friend from college.
b. that white person is a hospital employee.
c. that white person is a pharmacist, or a teacher.
d. that white person is a landlord.
e. if that white person looks poor, then he or she is perhaps living in a shelter.
f. that white person is a volunteer or something.

Very seldom do I see them as possible residents. But when you see a few (and I really do mean a few; I don't want to exaggerate) doing laundry and shopping in the supermarkets, then you know things are changing. People are deeming the neighborhood safe. And I've been spotting them, both young (early 20s) and old. The pioneers are here. Trust me, as someone who's lived in Hamilton Heights, Bedford Stuyvesant (by Clinton Hill) and Crown Heights, I've become aware of the signs. .
I can't believe you actually typed this ridiculous and pointless tangent. White people moving to a neighborhood doesn't mean anything in and of itself and it is idiotic and insulting to imply that it does. Are Bushwick, East Harlem and Red Hook desirable neighborhoods now that they've attracted white people over the last 5-10 years? No. Some of these hipster hoods are actually experiencing a surge in crime right now and declining in quality of life. The problem in the Bronx isn't the lack of white faces, it's the lack of economics via jobs, skills and education. A neighborhoods desirability isn't predicated nor made evident by white presence.
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Old 07-14-2010, 05:43 PM
 
49 posts, read 281,734 times
Reputation: 82
You know, I'll admit that some of my arguments were weak, and even inappropriate. And a part of me knew that my posting would elicit an email such as yours. In fact, I'm surprised yours has been the only one. Anyway, it's what happens when I rush. But I honestly believe that this neighborhood is becoming more pleasant. Again, I only point out the white people (which was pathetic of me, actually) because some people refuse to see a neighborhood as on the come up unless there are white people, which is rather foolish.
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Old 07-14-2010, 08:47 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,503 posts, read 17,199,837 times
Reputation: 2043
Neighborhoods like Mott Haven, Hunts Point, Melrose, and Morrisania are just too high crime. I would never live there. What's the point of living in a house, when you walk a block and you get robbed? At least the central Bronx hoods have lower crime rates. And University Heights does not belong in many of these conversations.

Below is median income in 2009, median rents, pop below poverty, and black percentage (from city data):

*For Fordham they combine Fordham Manor + Fordham Bedford..roughly from 182nd st to Kingsbridge rd...Jerome to Webster.

These neighborhoods ranged from 7.0 to 7.1 violent crime rates per 1,000.

University Heights - $30,387 $804 38.6% 23%
Tremont - $29,915 $791 38.5% 23%
Highbridge - $27,171 $694 41.3% 37%
Fordham -$25,786 $805 44% 21%
Morris Heights - $24,405 $702 42.1% 45%
---------------------------------------------------------------------

These neighborhoods ranged from 8.2 to 13.5 violent crime rates per 1,000.

Melrose - $18,894 $489 46.5% 27%
Morrisania - $19,617 $581 48% 50%
Mott Haven - $21,180 $473 46% 25%
Hunts point - $21,537 $549 47.6% 24%
East Tremont - $22,642 $634 44.6% 33%

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I used black percentage just because they correlate with higher crime rate and specifically to show the difference between Morris Heights and University Heights..night and day (literally lol) ..save me the lecture on racism..please!

Ok anyways...what do we have here? Hmm it seems these revitalized, booming, thriving southern Bronx hoods have in general, higher crime rates, cheaper rents, and higher poverty levels than those crumbling, disorganized, rowdy, disinvested central-west Bronx hoods!

But how can this be? I learn from city data that residents are moving from the south to where there are cheaper rents in west-central neighborhoods. How can the avg rent in UH be an extremely high (almost Bronx avg) $804 while the booming Mott haven has median rents of $473? Oh noes! Poor, low income UH has a very respectable median income of $30,387 while the oh so wonderful Mott Haven hood has a very very sad income of $21,180.

Look folks...the fact is that University Heights and Tremont need to be taken OUT of these conversations when statistics show that they are very very stable neighborhoods compared to the trash you have down south. When I think of Mott Haven and co. I think of welfare Puerto Ricans living alongside African Americans who call the VAST AMOUNT of housing projects home where you are probably goin to get robbed, mugged, witness a shootout, witness a drug transaction etc every day of your life! Watch out with the syringes on the floors...hey there are also plenty of vacant lots..smh...the south Bronx needs to be destroyed.

Up here we have stable family communities...where people actually work and play with their kids. Not go home everyday and shoot up.

Oh btw...you guys can take Morris Heights. What a crappy neighborhood that is. It resembles does trashy neighborhoods down south.

To finish off...I will repeat. Don't listen to ppl on here. University Heights -Tremont are not that bad!!!!!!!!! The scourge of the world, the lowest of trash, the trash of the city, the laughing stock of the world...will forever be Mott Haven, Hunts Point, Morrisania, Melrose, East Tremont, West Farms, and western Soundview.

and Morris Heights.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:35 PM
 
Location: Confines of the 101 Precinct
19,136 posts, read 32,681,385 times
Reputation: 7573
Quote:
Originally Posted by SuperMario View Post
Neighborhoods like Mott Haven, Hunts Point, Melrose, and Morrisania are just too high crime. I would never live there. What's the point of living in a house, when you walk a block and you get robbed? At least the central Bronx hoods have lower crime rates. And University Heights does not belong in many of these conversations.

Below is median income in 2009, median rents, pop below poverty, and black percentage (from city data):

*For Fordham they combine Fordham Manor + Fordham Bedford..roughly from 182nd st to Kingsbridge rd...Jerome to Webster.

These neighborhoods ranged from 7.0 to 7.1 violent crime rates per 1,000.

University Heights - $30,387 $804 38.6% 23%
Tremont - $29,915 $791 38.5% 23%
Highbridge - $27,171 $694 41.3% 37%
Fordham -$25,786 $805 44% 21%
Morris Heights - $24,405 $702 42.1% 45%
---------------------------------------------------------------------

These neighborhoods ranged from 8.2 to 13.5 violent crime rates per 1,000.

Melrose - $18,894 $489 46.5% 27%
Morrisania - $19,617 $581 48% 50%
Mott Haven - $21,180 $473 46% 25%
Hunts point - $21,537 $549 47.6% 24%
East Tremont - $22,642 $634 44.6% 33%

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I used black percentage just because they correlate with higher crime rate and specifically to show the difference between Morris Heights and University Heights..night and day (literally lol) ..save me the lecture on racism..please!

Ok anyways...what do we have here? Hmm it seems these revitalized, booming, thriving southern Bronx hoods have in general, higher crime rates, cheaper rents, and higher poverty levels than those crumbling, disorganized, rowdy, disinvested central-west Bronx hoods!

But how can this be? I learn from city data that residents are moving from the south to where there are cheaper rents in west-central neighborhoods. How can the avg rent in UH be an extremely high (almost Bronx avg) $804 while the booming Mott haven has median rents of $473? Oh noes! Poor, low income UH has a very respectable median income of $30,387 while the oh so wonderful Mott Haven hood has a very very sad income of $21,180.

Look folks...the fact is that University Heights and Tremont need to be taken OUT of these conversations when statistics show that they are very very stable neighborhoods compared to the trash you have down south. When I think of Mott Haven and co. I think of welfare Puerto Ricans living alongside African Americans who call the VAST AMOUNT of housing projects home where you are probably goin to get robbed, mugged, witness a shootout, witness a drug transaction etc every day of your life! Watch out with the syringes on the floors...hey there are also plenty of vacant lots..smh...the south Bronx needs to be destroyed.

Up here we have stable family communities...where people actually work and play with their kids. Not go home everyday and shoot up.

Oh btw...you guys can take Morris Heights. What a crappy neighborhood that is. It resembles does trashy neighborhoods down south.

To finish off...I will repeat. Don't listen to ppl on here. University Heights -Tremont are not that bad!!!!!!!!! The scourge of the world, the lowest of trash, the trash of the city, the laughing stock of the world...will forever be Mott Haven, Hunts Point, Morrisania, Melrose, East Tremont, West Farms, and western Soundview.

and Morris Heights.
u know i respect ur posts but before i can make an accurate comment i need boundaries for university heights and tremont. u know i know the bronx but i am not the best with neighborhood boundaries in the bronx.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:52 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,503 posts, read 17,199,837 times
Reputation: 2043
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeventhFloor View Post
u know i respect ur posts but before i can make an accurate comment i need boundaries for university heights and tremont. u know i know the bronx but i am not the best with neighborhood boundaries in the bronx.
According to city-data

University Heights : W Fordham rd to the north, W Burnside ave to the south, Major Deegan to the west, and Jerome ave to the east.

Tremont : E 181st to the north, Cross Bronx expwy to the south, Jerome ave to the west, and Webster ave to the east.

Suprising right?

I will say this. These two neighborhoods have no NYCHA housing project or rehab. Which may explain it. I also have to mention that there are blocks (according to city-data) that are extremely poor in both neighborhoods. Just to be fair.
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Old 07-14-2010, 09:56 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,503 posts, read 17,199,837 times
Reputation: 2043
Also have to add that according to city-data, the median income for Bronx Community College is $80,093. Although I do not know if they take this into account.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:25 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, NY $$$
6,836 posts, read 12,364,641 times
Reputation: 1567
south/west bronx use to be worst but is better now.

it seems the only gangs trying to ruin the area are the dominican gangs trinitario/ddp. fasting growing gangs and have shed alot of blood on the south/west bronx streets.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:44 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,503 posts, read 17,199,837 times
Reputation: 2043
Quote:
Originally Posted by jordandubreil View Post
south/west bronx use to be worst but is better now.

it seems the only gangs trying to ruin the area are the dominican gangs trinitario/ddp. fasting growing gangs and have shed alot of blood on the south/west bronx streets.
Trinitarios yea in UH...but the BLOODS started here and have been ruining the neighborhood for over 20 years...not to mention the Latin Kings.

South Bronx is BLOODS and KINGS...some CRIPS spread around but mostly concentrated a little to the east.

DDP's in Fordham..along with Crips.
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Old 07-15-2010, 12:46 AM
 
24,511 posts, read 34,130,468 times
Reputation: 12779
do the BLOODS pay taxes?
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