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Old 10-19-2011, 12:03 PM
 
768 posts, read 432,492 times
Reputation: 488

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
My simple issue is this: I can also recall the good 'ol days of the Bronx, where families were happy, enjoying life, we played outside without worry of kidnapping or getting shot, neighbors looked out for neighbors, etc....in the 1980s. Weird huh? Does that mean it was an idyllic paradise? Heck no...but it's all relative and through tainted eyes, fuzzy memories, and romatincized selective memory. For every wonderful memory about the Bronx you have pre 1970, I can give you one post 1970..and we would both be using our selective memory.

As for your specific question, it really depends. Do you believe NYC and our society overall was a better place pre 1970? Let's see a few examples of the wonderful place that was NYC pre 1970:

The Mob controlling substantial parts of our city, including infecting out political system, corrupting elected officials, and having a "lock" on crime in NYC.
We had corruption at epic proportions across the city, including the Police Force.
We had massive inequality and outright segregation/violence not just based on race, but women also were second class citizens. You do realize women couldn't even attend IVY League schools until the 70s right?
Interacial marriage was illegal.

And if you want to go further back:

The slums of the early 1900s make the housing projects today look like 5 star luxury hotels.
Diseases and plagues swept through the city periodically killing and sickening thousands at a time.
Violence and thuggery was the norm, with the Police routinely clubbing and beating residents for the most minor offenses. The Paddy Wagon was so called because it was a term referring to the Irish.
There was a gang for everything: Your block, your school, your building, your friends, your street, your neighborhood, by race, and on and on....gangs and street fighting were simply a right of passage.

But none of that matters, because kids played in parks and smiled, you walked "safely" to and from school, people dressed "properly", and threw garbage out in garbage cans (in general). So to you...and those who like to fantasize about a reality that never existed, those are the only things that matter.

IMO, it was a fundamental change in 1970 in our society which many people did not agree with, and had little to do with a single person (Mayor or anyone). The Bronx (and the city overall) on many levels became an even more dysfunctional place than it already was, and the city's response to the changes made things worse, not better. Yes more people were on welfare, yes crime SEEMED to escalate, and it all SEEMED to coincide with the influx of all the brown and black people...so clearly it was their fault..right?

You are welcome to think fondly of the borough that never was, as I do the same thing, but it doesn't change the reality that the Bronx has always been the "Wild West" long before 1970.
My Dear Drama Queen Sobro,

You keep saying that we are saying that the Bronx was a paradise. I never said that, only that it was better than now.

I played as a child in Poe Park (yes, danced there too), and never had a problem. Lots of kids played there and there were many adults present, especially moms. My neighborhood then was generally clean, everyone I knew lived modestly, and aside from late night Irishmen coming home from the bars, the streets were quiet. It's not that way today.

Is Poe Park still there? Yes. Is it as nice, clean, possessing functioning water fountains, benchs with slats, etc. as it was in the early 1960s? NO. Who changed the park to the way it is now? I venture to guess it's not the folks who used to live there.

As a teen, I saw the decay set in, and like a lot of people in my neighborhood, was powerless to stop it. It was ugly. No one I knew in my area was ever mugged, unless they went to the then South Bronx. Fordham Road and north was safe, for whites (and unfortunately, not for minorities who went there). And those white people that were mugged -were mugged by Blacks and Hispanics. Of course there were white muggers and criminals...but at least in my 'hood no one I knew were victims to them. By far, the greatest percentage of crime on blacks is perpertrated by blacks. I would submit this is a form of social canabilism.

As I concurred, there was corruption and problems in the Bronx and all of NY. But blessed with good memory I can say truthfully that my 'hood was cleaner, safer, prouder, and economically better off before 1970 than later.

You make a lot of excuses for uncivil and criminal behavior, what you don't do well is make your case.
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Old 10-19-2011, 12:34 PM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,665,287 times
Reputation: 4168
No drama here..I welcome you to refute any claims I have made about the Bronx or NYC pre 1970. There is no doubt you danced in the park, I have enjoyed my parks in the 80s and 90s also...roller skated, sledding, picnics, etc...that does not mean the park was "safe"..but to me, it was a nice place. It's all relative.

I agree with the decay that set in, much of which was driven by blockbusting, and the fear of the "evil" black and brown people...and all the people cashing in on those fears. The city's response (or lackthereof) made things worse.

It should be known however, that the greatest percentage of crime against blacks is committed by blacks today...BUT the reality is for 400 years, it was, and always was, whites against blacks. And that occured all through the 50s, 60s, and 70s. Whites have never been a victim of anything, so let's not rewrite history here because a few people were mugged.

And what I do is not excuses, I discuss in truths, and not symptoms of problems like you do. Uncivil and criminal behavior was enjoyed openly for 400 years by whites through the importation and subjugation of an entire race of people, and then Jim Crow laws, and when those blacks and browns got tired of it, somehow they became the bad guys. Really? I guess they should have known their place and stayed on the fringes of society so that you can continue dancing in the park.

You do alot of deflection from the underlying issues, it is much easier to blame those brown and black folks for ruining whatever false image you had of the borough, but if they were treated equally and fairly, we would not be having this conversation, and I think we can all agree to that.
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Old 10-19-2011, 08:57 PM
 
2,504 posts, read 1,814,070 times
Reputation: 1762
Sobro...stop being spiteful and stop trying to protect your people and admit that once puerto ricans and blacks started to move into the Bronx, crime rose, quality of life diminished and the Bronx went downhill.

A trend was created that until TODAY (50 years later) the "hood" culture still plagues the Bronx with no end in sight. And you can thank your puerto rican and black forefathers for initiating and ruining the Bronx.

Notice how it ONLY took a tiny 10 year period (1967 -1977) to turn the Bronx from a relatively desirable, majority white and "non-ghetto" safe Bronx to a full blown "hood" or war zone full of ghetto, unruly and uneducated puerto ricans and blacks.

40-50 years later the Bronx STILL can't climb out of the ghetto sh--hole the puerto ricans and blacks created.

The Bronx was perfectly fine and safe until a NEW and lower class demographics started to move in (puerto ricans and blacks).

Sorry Sobro, thats the truth and you know it. It's ok to admit despite you being puerto rican and feel the need to speak up for your people.

As a landlord, thats why I always say...if you wanna mess up a good neighborhood, start renting to black people and latinos and watch them STRIP the appealing and desirable factor of the neighborhood away with their lifestyle and subculture. It's a guarantee. And the more predominate blacks or latinos get in the neighborhood, the worst it gets.

The only way to keep unruly black people and latinos in check so that they don't ruin the neighborhood, is by them being a "minority" racially and financially in the neighborhood. That way they feel like they have to conform to the behavior and expectations of the ruling majority demographics which doesn't resort or tolerate ghetto/unruly behavior. Blacks and latinos would feel like they don't "fit" in making them feel uncomfortable forcing them to conform and obey the status quo of the community.

Put to many blacks or latinos together and you get the "Bronx is Burning" affect.
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Old 10-19-2011, 09:04 PM
 
Location: Sunset Park, Brooklyn
423 posts, read 776,941 times
Reputation: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopjay View Post
Sobro...stop being spiteful and stop trying to protect your people and admit that once puerto ricans and blacks started to move into the Bronx, crime rose, quality of life diminished and the Bronx went downhill.

A trend was created that until TODAY (50 years later) the "hood" culture still plagues the Bronx with no end in sight. And you can thank your puerto rican and black forefathers for initiating and ruining the Bronx.

Notice how it ONLY took a tiny 10 year period (1967 -1977) to turn the Bronx from a relatively desirable, majority white and "non-ghetto" safe Bronx to a full blown "hood" or war zone full of ghetto, unruly and uneducated puerto ricans and blacks.

40-50 years later the Bronx STILL can't climb out of the ghetto sh--hole the puerto ricans and blacks created.

The Bronx was perfectly fine and safe until a NEW and lower class demographics started to move in (puerto ricans and blacks).

Sorry Sobro, thats the truth and you know it. It's ok to admit despite you being puerto rican and feel the need to speak up for your people.

As a landlord, thats why I always say...if you wanna mess up a good neighborhood, start renting to black people and latinos and watch them STRIP the appealing and desirable factor of the neighborhood away with their lifestyle and subculture. It's a guarantee. And the more predominate blacks or latinos get in the neighborhood, the worst it gets.

The only way to keep unruly black people and latinos in check so that they don't ruin the neighborhood, is by them being a "minority" racially and financially in the neighborhood. That way they feel like they have to conform to the behavior and expectations of the ruling majority demographics which doesn't resort or tolerate ghetto/unruly behavior. Blacks and latinos would feel like they don't "fit" in making them feel uncomfortable forcing them to conform and obey the status quo of the community.

Put to many blacks or latinos together and you get the "Bronx is Burning" affect.
So if we're blaming puerto rican and black forefathers for the state that The Bronx is in, can we blame the white forefathers that came to this country, colonized, robbed, killed, deprived people of an education and broke families apart all the time?

I don't know how you can expect a group of people to be on the same level as others when they were NEVER given the same damn opportunities for hundreds of years. Yeah, you're right, the neighborhoods did rise in crime, but there's a reason that many of these people are the way they are. Look back a few hundred years.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:03 PM
 
2,504 posts, read 1,814,070 times
Reputation: 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andez View Post
So if we're blaming puerto rican and black forefathers for the state that The Bronx is in, can we blame the white forefathers that came to this country, colonized, robbed, killed, deprived people of an education and broke families apart all the time?

I don't know how you can expect a group of people to be on the same level as others when they were NEVER given the same damn opportunities for hundreds of years. Yeah, you're right, the neighborhoods did rise in crime, but there's a reason that many of these people are the way they are. Look back a few hundred years.
YES we CAN blame the white forefathers as well. Now that blame has been admitted...now what? Black people FINALLY rise and FINALLY start acting like civilized/non-ghetto people as a whole-collectively? Nope!

Black people can use the "slavery" excuse to try to justify their short comings (which I don't buy) but what excuse are latinos going to use to justify their short comings? Hmmmmmm?

Since we're on the slavery topics, Jews were slaves to and they prospered. If they can do it why can't blacks? Hmmmmmm?

Did it ever dawn to anyone that EACH person should be held ACCOUNTABLE for their ACTIONS? Using the excuse of black people being slaves 300 years ago being a direct effect to black people being ghetto is INSANE.

If that were true then EVERY SINGLE BLACK person in America should have the same fate and all be the typical ghetto/loud mouth/always has an attitude black person.

Are all black people like that? NO!!!!!

So how is it SOME black people are able to prosper, become a productive member of society while the rest aren't YET they ALL have a common denominator...SLAVERY!!! Hmmmmmmmm?

So whoever uses slavery as an excuse to justify black people's issue..don't blame slavery...blame yourself!
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:20 PM
 
Location: Sunset Park, Brooklyn
423 posts, read 776,941 times
Reputation: 220
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopjay View Post
YES we CAN blame the white forefathers as well. Now that blame has been admitted...now what? Black people FINALLY rise and FINALLY start acting like civilized/non-ghetto people as a whole-collectively? Nope!

Black people can use the "slavery" excuse to try to justify their short comings (which I don't buy) but what excuse are latinos going to use to justify their short comings? Hmmmmmm?

Since we're on the slavery topics, Jews were slaves to and they prospered. If they can do it why can't blacks? Hmmmmmm?

Did it ever dawn to anyone that EACH person should be held ACCOUNTABLE for their ACTIONS? Using the excuse of black people being slaves 300 years ago being a direct effect to black people being ghetto is INSANE.

If that were true then EVERY SINGLE BLACK person in America should have the same fate and all be the typical ghetto/loud mouth/always has an attitude black person.

Are all black people like that? NO!!!!!

So how is it SOME black people are able to prosper, become a productive member of society while the rest aren't YET they ALL have a common denominator...SLAVERY!!! Hmmmmmmmm?

So whoever uses slavery as an excuse to justify black people's issue..don't blame slavery...blame yourself!
How is it insane...? Use your mind. How someone is raised has a tremendous bearing on how they'll grow up to be. So now imagine this..

A slave had a child and the child was taken away. So the child grew up with no parents, no good upbringing, then they grow up to have a kid, and the same thing happens. Fast forward 300 years later and you have a huge problem in these communities. Why? Because it all started generations ago. Of course, some managed to break free of this cycle. Some blacks lived in the north and generally had better chances at educating themselves.

As for latinos, they were also colonized and come on, look at the education a lot of these people have on the tiny islands. So they come here with good morals, but they have to work and don't have much time to take care of their kids and then you have what you have now.

Don't you think if blacks were brought to this country and had the same opportunities to educate themselves, same housing, etc we'd have a completely different situation?

Use the example someone gave you a page back... have two kids, deprive one of an education, regularly beat him, make him feel inferior and give him a bad home with a single parent... and then have one that you treat good, give an education to, etc

Which do you think will be better off? In 10 years? 200 years? I'll let you respond.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:26 PM
 
Location: Sunset Park, Brooklyn
423 posts, read 776,941 times
Reputation: 220
My problem with your posts is the way you say those blacks and puerto ricans came and destroyed our neighborhoods. Well yeah, The Bronx did go downhill in the 70s. The problem is you act as if these people are intrinsically bad. Like they came and destroyed The Bronx BECAUSE they're puerto rican and black and not white.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:44 PM
 
2,504 posts, read 1,814,070 times
Reputation: 1762
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andez View Post
How is it insane...? Use your mind. How someone is raised has a tremendous bearing on how they'll grow up to be. So now imagine this..

A slave had a child and the child was taken away. So the child grew up with no parents, no good upbringing, then they grow up to have a kid, and the same thing happens. Fast forward 300 years later and you have a huge problem in these communities. Why? Because it all started generations ago. Of course, some managed to break free of this cycle. Some blacks lived in the north and generally had better chances at educating themselves.

As for latinos, they were also colonized and come on, look at the education a lot of these people have on the tiny islands. So they come here with good morals, but they have to work and don't have much time to take care of their kids and then you have what you have now.

Don't you think if blacks were brought to this country and had the same opportunities to educate themselves, same housing, etc we'd have a completely different situation?

Use the example someone gave you a page back... have two kids, deprive one of an education, regularly beat him, make him feel inferior and give him a bad home with a single parent... and then have one that you treat good, give an education to, etc

Which do you think will be better off? In 10 years? 200 years? I'll let you respond.
So you're saying all the successful blacks came from the north were there was more opportunity. Therefore there are no successful black people in the south? Right?

The fact is no matter what I say, you will keep believing your fair tale belief and ignore the fact that its ultimately a individual decision despite your environment. You look within yourself to help yourself and hold yourself accountable for your actions...not slavery. SMH

I notice you didn't address my comment about Jews being slaves as we yet they prospered.....yet we're still waiting for black people to get their crap together.

Yeah slavery...keep using that excuse and see how far it gets you in life. SMH
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Bronx
8,527 posts, read 7,860,288 times
Reputation: 3975
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopjay View Post
So you're saying all the successful blacks came from the north were there was more opportunity. Therefore there are no successful black people in the south? Right?

The fact is no matter what I say, you will keep believing your fair tale belief and ignore the fact that its ultimately a individual decision despite your environment. You look within yourself to help yourself and hold yourself accountable for your actions...not slavery. SMH

I notice you didn't address my comment about Jews being slaves as we yet they prospered.....yet we're still waiting for black people to get their crap together.

Yeah slavery...keep using that excuse and see how far it gets you in life. SMH
Why dont cha just say all blacks in nyc should just leave and go back down south. It sounds like thats what you want.

I hope you know there are ghetto white people to in the bronx who are just as appauling as ghetto blacks and ghetto hispanics.
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Old 10-19-2011, 10:51 PM
 
Location: Bronx
8,527 posts, read 7,860,288 times
Reputation: 3975
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilltopjay View Post
So you're saying all the successful blacks came from the north were there was more opportunity. Therefore there are no successful black people in the south? Right?

The fact is no matter what I say, you will keep believing your fair tale belief and ignore the fact that its ultimately a individual decision despite your environment. You look within yourself to help yourself and hold yourself accountable for your actions...not slavery. SMH

I notice you didn't address my comment about Jews being slaves as we yet they prospered.....yet we're still waiting for black people to get their crap together.

Yeah slavery...keep using that excuse and see how far it gets you in life. SMH
Did you know it was a jew who helped financed columbus trip to the new world and change th history foreve.
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