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Old 12-10-2010, 12:49 PM
 
Location: You want kimchi with that?
8,479 posts, read 6,042,099 times
Reputation: 2183

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No, the bar is not set too high, I am just using today's standard of determining whether the area is "safe". CP even during day hours was an aids infested,

How is a park AIDS-infested? are you saying its immune systems was collapsing?

heroin needle garbage dump.

I dont think I ever saw a needle in CP in those days. Perhaps I didnt look hard enough.

There is nothing even close to that anywhere in NY right now. If we use the 80s standard of safety, even East New York, which is arguably the worst neighborhood of the city today, would be considered "safe" and "dodgy at best" only at night.


It would be good if someone had some actual stats. I suspect there are areas now with higher numbers of murders (rates is problematic given that a park does not have a "population") than CP. I would agree that NYC today, and US cities today are far safer than they were in that period. Your picture of CP is misleading however.


80s standard of safety:
safe - any area that has something that is at least livable, with functioning amenities for 'normal' people.
bad - totally bombed out apocalyptic wastelands comparable to Somalia or Hiroshima after the bomb


No, not really. There were a few parts of the bronx that looked bombed out due to the arson epidemice of the mid-70s, and even some of them were being transformed by the early 80s, IIRC.

I am not even going to get into Somalia with you, as you seem to take pride in exaggeration and rhetoric.
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:15 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
1,408 posts, read 1,342,361 times
Reputation: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
It would be good if someone had some actual stats. I suspect there are areas now with higher numbers of murders (rates is problematic given that a park does not have a "population") than CP. I would agree that NYC today, and US cities today are far safer than they were in that period. Your picture of CP is misleading however.
I am certainly not exaggerating. If you want to talk about statistics, in 1993 East New York, a nabe of 90,000 people had 129 murders. There were a total of 130 murders in the whole borough of the Bronx (population ~1.3 million) in 2007.

Yes, you heard me. I just freaking compared a neighborhood of 90,000 people to the freakin Bronx - all of the neighborhoods combined, and then you tell me "it wasn't that bad and I am exaggerating". New York City crime average of 1990 would be considered one of the worst hoods in the city nowadays. I don't know CP crime rate during the 80s, but I am guessing it was at least close to the city average. Would be nice for someone to find the actual stats by precinct.
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:32 PM
 
Location: You want kimchi with that?
8,479 posts, read 6,042,099 times
Reputation: 2183
"New York City crime average of 1990 would be considered one of the worst hoods in the city nowadays. I don't know CP crime rate during the 80s, but I am guessing it was at least close to the city average."


You said no go areas, CP was not a no go area.
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:46 PM
 
Location: You want kimchi with that?
8,479 posts, read 6,042,099 times
Reputation: 2183
"And they are being generous here. Compared to today's standards even midtown and downtown Manhattan would be considered a ghetto"


Crime rates peaked very in 1990, across the city.

However most people, even in 1990, were not crime victims, especially in the relatively low crime areas. In all other respects, housing and other aspects of lifestyule, those areas were not ghetto like.

Its really wonderful that today, in NYC, areas where people live in crappy housing, have limited economic prospects and poor schools, at least live with low levels of crime, as low as good areas in NYC in 1990.

But to say that those good areas in NYC, were "ghettos" is misleading. There is more than crime that makes a "ghetto"
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Old 12-10-2010, 01:52 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,095 posts, read 11,783,805 times
Reputation: 1650
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gantz View Post
I am certainly not exaggerating. If you want to talk about statistics, in 1993 East New York, a nabe of 90,000 people had 129 murders. There were a total of 130 murders in the whole borough of the Bronx (population ~1.3 million) in 2007.

Yes, you heard me. I just freaking compared a neighborhood of 90,000 people to the freakin Bronx - all of the neighborhoods combined, and then you tell me "it wasn't that bad and I am exaggerating". New York City crime average of 1990 would be considered one of the worst hoods in the city nowadays. I don't know CP crime rate during the 80s, but I am guessing it was at least close to the city average. Would be nice for someone to find the actual stats by precinct.
It's not that difficult.I got murder rates for Bronx, Brooklyn, and Harlem.
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Old 12-10-2010, 02:39 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
1,408 posts, read 1,342,361 times
Reputation: 965
Quote:
Originally Posted by brooklynborndad View Post
You said no go areas, CP was not a no go area.
By todays standards it would be considered a no-go area. Lower CP during the day in the 80s had higher crime rate than upper CP at 3am today. It was also much less developed and very dirty compared to today as well, not just having higher crime.
Quote:
Its really wonderful that today, in NYC, areas where people live in crappy housing, have limited economic prospects and poor schools, at least live with low levels of crime, as low as good areas in NYC in 1990.

But to say that those good areas in NYC, were "ghettos" is misleading. There is more than crime that makes a "ghetto"
NY during the 80s-early 90s was much less developed and dirty compared to today. In all areas. When was the last time you've been to South Bronx? Don't even get me started on New York subway during the 70s and 80s, it was straight out of a third world country.

People complain about NY subway today... yet it is night and day compared to the subway of 20 years ago.

Here is "average" New York subway pics:
http://www.freshnessmag.com/wp-conte...-old-ny-01.jpg
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/2002rune_album/3769852722_3f03153d9f_b.jpg (broken link)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/2002rune_album/3655415752_6016bc98d3_o.jpg (broken link)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/2002rune_album/3655415344_333d39d123_o.jpg (broken link)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/2002rune_album/3655415120_ab621f4edf_o.jpg (broken link)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/2002rune_album/2948080826_0ae66b98b8_o.jpg (broken link)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/2002rune_album/2888341791_8198b3893d_o.jpg (broken link)
http://i381.photobucket.com/albums/oo256/2002rune_album/2826042277_002a3597f7_o.jpg (broken link)
http://www.redrivercatalog.com/pros/...ay37-Knife.jpg

Last edited by Gantz; 12-10-2010 at 03:09 PM..
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Old 12-10-2010, 02:59 PM
 
69 posts, read 85,298 times
Reputation: 52
Those subway pics are great!
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:03 PM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
5,095 posts, read 11,783,805 times
Reputation: 1650
These are some 1990 murder rates by precinct(that I calculated). I have a few to do, so I just did precincts I know coincide with community districts.

48th* (E.Tremont) - 201 per 100,000
41st (Hunts Point) - 112 per 100,000
28th+32nd (Central Harlem) - 108 per 100,000
42nd (Morrisania)- 94 per 100,000
40th (Mott Haven) - 93 per 100,000
79th+81st (Bed-Stuy) - 87 per 100,000
83rd (Bushwick) - 75 per 100,000
44th (Highbridge) - 74 per 100,000
73rd (Brownsville) - 71 per 100,000
46th (Tremont) - 69 per 100,000
75th (East NY) - 68 per 100,000
30th (West Harlem) - 65 per 100,000
67th+70th (E.Flatbush/Flatbush) - 61 per 100,000
23rd+25th (East Harlem) - 60 per 100,000
34th (Washington Heights) - 52 per 100,000

**The arson fire that killed 90 people in E. Tremont is the reason it's murder rate is that high. It's actual murder rate was in the 60's.
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:13 PM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York
1,408 posts, read 1,342,361 times
Reputation: 965
Thanks SuperMario. Do you know what is the highest murder rate district of today?
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Old 12-10-2010, 03:35 PM
 
Location: You want kimchi with that?
8,479 posts, read 6,042,099 times
Reputation: 2183
"By todays standards it would be considered a no-go area."

No go means a place people wont go. There is no "by todays standards".

Quote:
Its really wonderful that today, in NYC, areas where people live in crappy housing, have limited economic prospects and poor schools, at least live with low levels of crime, as low as good areas in NYC in 1990.

But to say that those good areas in NYC, were "ghettos" is misleading. There is more than crime that makes a "ghetto"
"NY during the 80s-early 90s was much less developed and dirty compared to today. In all areas."


Yes there has been more development. I am not sure about it being much less dirty. Still missing my point.


"When was the last time you've been to South Bronx? "

I rarely go to the South Bronx.

"Don't even get me started on New York subway during the 70s and 80s, it was straight out of a third world country. "

I rode the subway almost very day between 1974 and 1977. Did you? You are simply not correct.
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