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Old 01-06-2011, 11:59 PM
Status: "Be Kind" (set 7 hours ago)
 
1,702 posts, read 1,952,577 times
Reputation: 1850
Quote:
Originally Posted by newyorkobserveher View Post
To tell it like a real New Yorker, stop talking out of your ass.

New York, up until about 1974 with the regime change (going from a city which provided services to its working class and was more prone to 'help' its working/middle class residents with activities, places, etc. towards a more tourism based economy) was VERY middle class friendly! Overwhelmingly throughout the history of the city, the middle class has been able to do ok.

New York NEEDS a middle class or else it will crash and burn like never before. Know that. See this link: city of aspiration - Google Search and read the pdf. You'll be singing a different tune.
It still has one, as SoBro pointed out in another thread it's less of the "Honeymooners" variety and more of the "Asian grocery guy" type, so people ignore it. Also, even if NYC loses it's middle class, there's always NJ and LI (Where most of them end up anyway).
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Old 01-09-2011, 08:52 PM
 
Location: NYC
142 posts, read 214,367 times
Reputation: 82
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
Also, even if NYC loses it's middle class, there's always NJ and LI (Where most of them end up anyway).
You just lost all credibility with this argument. "Oh well, no more middle class! Pack 'em up and move 'em to Jersey!"

New York needs a middle class to survive, otherwise it will implode.
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Old 01-10-2011, 12:21 AM
 
3,106 posts, read 2,424,489 times
Reputation: 1192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
Why does it bother you others have wealth?
Uh, not sure why you think I have a problem with people who have wealth. I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. For the umpteenth time, the issue is areas that can easily become saturated with "one type of person" (i.e., not middle class) due to displacement of middle-class people. I have a big problem with people here saying Hey displacement is grrrreaaaaat for NYC (sounding like Tony the Tiger from Frosted Flakes) without acknowledging even a tiny chance of a possible Pandora's box effect. How is imbalance a great thing? Generally, it's not. And lots of times there's no urgent reason for an area to be saturated with "one type of person." I gave some examples as exceptions such as the UES for workaholics who wish to do business even at a weekend dinner party and Chinatown for language. The middle-class, for the health of NYC, is also an exception. Those are just 3 examples. And as I said repeatedly over the last few days, I'm not the only person who thinks the middle-class needs help (in the form of bigger subsidies and policy reform) to stay intact and that they need more reasons to not move out. Look at this 2009 report from nycfuture.org in the below link. In my interpretation, the report is saying the strains on the middle class in NYC will eventually result in huge problems never before seen. And if we're really unlucky, a number of those problems will be irreversible.
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimace8 View Post
Certainly there are good aspects of gentrification that we can cherry-pick and mix into the mix, but let's learn from past blunders and not do things willy nilly. Some people on this forum might think gentrification is wonderful/superb "no matter what", but guess what, most everything in this world (including gentrification, hello) has flaws. In closing, I just want to say for the umper-teenth time, I want the City to think things through and plan. (Not having a plan isn't a plan) Why is that such a wrong thing to ask for?

Last edited by grimace8; 01-10-2011 at 01:50 AM..
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Old 01-10-2011, 01:39 AM
 
Location: Bronx
7,986 posts, read 6,584,985 times
Reputation: 3525
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimace8 View Post
Uh, not sure why you think I have a problem with people who have wealth. I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. For the umpteenth time, the issue is areas that can easily become saturated with "one type of person" (i.e., not middle class) due to displacement of middle-class people. I have a big problem with people here saying Hey displacement is grrrreaaaaat for NYC (sounding like Tony the Tiger from Frosted Flakes) without acknowledging even a tiny chance of a possible Pandora's box effect. How is imbalance a great thing? Generally, it's not. And lots of times there's no urgent reason for an area to be saturated with "one type of person." I gave some examples as exceptions such as the UES for workaholics who wish to do business even at a weekend dinner party and Chinatown for language. Those are just 2 examples. Furthermore, for the umper-teenth time, I want the City to think things through and plan. (Not having a plan isn't a plan) Why is that such a wrong thing to ask for?

And as I said repeatedly over the last few days, I'm not the only person who thinks the middle-class needs help (in the form of bigger subsidies and policy reform) to stay intact and that they need more reasons to not move out. Look at this 2009 report from nycfuture.org in the below link


Certainly there are good aspects of gentrification that we can cherry-pick and mix into the mix, but let's learn from past blunders and not do things willy nilly. Some people on this forum might think gentrification is great and superb "no matter what", but guess what, most everything in this world (including gentrification, hello) has flaws.
I agree. This is one thing I hate about this forum is that people on this forum don't realize that every action has a reaction, every pro has a con. Rationality goes a long way then blind sided irrationality.
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Old 01-10-2011, 08:57 AM
 
Location: NYC
142 posts, read 214,367 times
Reputation: 82
Most of the "gentrification is awesome!!" crowd aren't even from New York and/or haven't lived here most of their lives.
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Old 02-13-2011, 09:48 AM
 
Location: Bronx
1 posts, read 650 times
Reputation: 10
Default Bronx and Gentrification

Gentrification, however defined, is the only hope for the Bronx. Although NYers esp. get very defensive when you cite the faults of poor neighborhoods, or talk about improvement, or place blame on the residents themselves, fact is the larger part of the Bronx is a scandal, not only by comparison with other boroughs but also compared to poor neighborhoods in other parts of the world. I was in Istanbul's reputedly poorest neighborhood a few years back, and I was struck by the cleanliness, the sense of order, the civility and the economic vitality. Communities with only one stratum of economic life, however, have never been particularly healthy neighborhoods -- not here, not elsewhere, not at any time in history. On the (relatively) minor issue of widespread trash and garbage dumping (dumping on the streets, along parked cars, I mean, not commercial dumping), I strongly suggest a media campaign sponsored by our elected officials -- a campaign to educate, enlighten and even shame Bronx residents into better behaviors. (Why has no one pursued this option before now?) But as long as we think that pointing out any demerit constitutes some racial or ethnic or class slight, nothing will ever really change in the borough. Bronx residents are tough; I think they could handle a little scolding. On dog litter, I'm resigned to the fact that Bronxites won't change their habits until white gentrifiers come in and show them by their example the virtue and propriety of cleaning up after your dog(s) and instituting dog runs in our public parks. This was the case in Harlem, a decade or so ago. Yes, I said whites; for I seriously doubt latin and black Bronxites will follow the lead of thoughtful citizens of their own race. It's a sad observation, admittedly, but I'm afraid it's the awful truth. And that too, for better or worse, is another reason why "gentrification" is a good thing for NYC's poorest neighborhoods.

Last edited by bp294; 02-13-2011 at 09:58 AM..
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Old 02-14-2011, 05:26 AM
Status: "Be Kind" (set 7 hours ago)
 
1,702 posts, read 1,952,577 times
Reputation: 1850
Quote:
Originally Posted by grimace8 View Post
Uh, not sure why you think I have a problem with people who have wealth. I don't. Don't put words in my mouth. For the umpteenth time, the issue is areas that can easily become saturated with "one type of person" (i.e., not middle class) due to displacement of middle-class people. I have a big problem with people here saying Hey displacement is grrrreaaaaat for NYC (sounding like Tony the Tiger from Frosted Flakes) without acknowledging even a tiny chance of a possible Pandora's box effect. How is imbalance a great thing? Generally, it's not. And lots of times there's no urgent reason for an area to be saturated with "one type of person." I gave some examples as exceptions such as the UES for workaholics who wish to do business even at a weekend dinner party and Chinatown for language. The middle-class, for the health of NYC, is also an exception. Those are just 3 examples. And as I said repeatedly over the last few days, I'm not the only person who thinks the middle-class needs help (in the form of bigger subsidies and policy reform) to stay intact and that they need more reasons to not move out. Look at this 2009 report from nycfuture.org in the below link. In my interpretation, the report is saying the strains on the middle class in NYC will eventually result in huge problems never before seen. And if we're really unlucky, a number of those problems will be irreversible.


Certainly there are good aspects of gentrification that we can cherry-pick and mix into the mix, but let's learn from past blunders and not do things willy nilly. Some people on this forum might think gentrification is wonderful/superb "no matter what", but guess what, most everything in this world (including gentrification, hello) has flaws. In closing, I just want to say for the umper-teenth time, I want the City to think things through and plan. (Not having a plan isn't a plan) Why is that such a wrong thing to ask for?

No one is owed anything in this life. NYC has plenty of middle class both within and in it's suburbs. In fact, the middle class prefers the suburbs.
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Old 02-14-2011, 06:41 AM
 
67 posts, read 12,177 times
Reputation: 36
Quote:
Originally Posted by bp294 View Post
Gentrification, however defined, is the only hope for the Bronx. Although NYers esp. get very defensive when you cite the faults of poor neighborhoods, or talk about improvement, or place blame on the residents themselves, fact is the larger part of the Bronx is a scandal, not only by comparison with other boroughs but also compared to poor neighborhoods in other parts of the world. I was in Istanbul's reputedly poorest neighborhood a few years back, and I was struck by the cleanliness, the sense of order, the civility and the economic vitality. Communities with only one stratum of economic life, however, have never been particularly healthy neighborhoods -- not here, not elsewhere, not at any time in history. On the (relatively) minor issue of widespread trash and garbage dumping (dumping on the streets, along parked cars, I mean, not commercial dumping), I strongly suggest a media campaign sponsored by our elected officials -- a campaign to educate, enlighten and even shame Bronx residents into better behaviors. (Why has no one pursued this option before now?) But as long as we think that pointing out any demerit constitutes some racial or ethnic or class slight, nothing will ever really change in the borough. Bronx residents are tough; I think they could handle a little scolding. On dog litter, I'm resigned to the fact that Bronxites won't change their habits until white gentrifiers come in and show them by their example the virtue and propriety of cleaning up after your dog(s) and instituting dog runs in our public parks. This was the case in Harlem, a decade or so ago. Yes, I said whites; for I seriously doubt latin and black Bronxites will follow the lead of thoughtful citizens of their own race. It's a sad observation, admittedly, but I'm afraid it's the awful truth. And that too, for better or worse, is another reason why "gentrification" is a good thing for NYC's poorest neighborhoods.
OMG...I agree with your entire comment 100% and this is coming from a fellow native Bronxite who's in the trenches. The Bronx indeed needs a dose of gentrification to "DILUTE" the strong-hold of the current demographics that has plagued the Bronx for 1/2 a century.

The anti-gentrification people on this board claim its not good to have TO MANY of a certain race or class in an area BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE BRONX DEMOGRAPHICS IS AND HAS!!! The ONLY difference is the majority of the Bronx demographics are NOT rich white people but rather poor or working poor blacks or latinos and on welfare, section 8 and other city/government programs. Not very DIVERSE if you ask me. Add more white people to the Bronx and then you can say it's a diverse place to live.

You need to understand that these type of people (poor blacks and latinos) make an overwhelming majority of the Bronx demographics and as a result defines the Bronx as a whole, giving it a bad name and making it impossible to ignore "their" presence in the borough.

Why do you think the negative stigma of "DA BRONX" is so hard to shake...because the race but more so the CLASS of people that CREATED the "Bronx Zoo" environment or the decline of the Bronx in the late 60's, 70's, are pretty much the predominate race and class of people that live in the Bronx today!!! ABSOLUTELY NO CHANGE. Talk about a strong-hold, in 50 years...the cycle STILL hasn't been broken yet and I as well as others on this board believe GENTRIFICATION is that cycle breaker.
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Old 02-14-2011, 07:27 AM
 
3,106 posts, read 2,424,489 times
Reputation: 1192
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shizzles View Post
No one is owed anything in this life.
Uh, wrong. Leaders owe us good ideas. And it seems they're coming up with more good ideas lately. Example: Hunters Point South will be a "middle-class haven"

Quote:
Originally Posted by ashely2011 View Post
The anti-gentrification people on this board claim its not good to have TO MANY of a certain race or class in an area BUT THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT THE BRONX DEMOGRAPHICS IS AND HAS!!! The ONLY difference is the majority of the Bronx demographics are NOT rich white people but rather poor or working poor blacks or latinos and on welfare, section 8 and other city/government programs. Not very DIVERSE if you ask me. Add more white people to the Bronx and then you can say it's a diverse place to live.
Fortunately it seems we're moving toward a salad bowl society here in NYC since we all know the melting pot was idiotic to begin with. See the link about Hunters Point South in Queens.

If we see lots of low-income ethnic strongholds being broken due to closely-monitored gentrification, I'd say it's a good thing, generally speaking. I've never lived in the Bronx, but it seems to me there's no reason for a Hispanic stronghold (JMO). At least we can say the culture of Chinatown attracts tourists. The culture of "Latino Bronx" doesn't do the same as far as I know. Before anyone here screams Yankee Stadium!, Yankee Stadium doesn't count since it's not a Latino creation. And before anyone here screams Hunters Point (Qns) is not an ethnic stronghold!, don't waste your breath. I already know that. I am merely pointing out the Hunters Point South development as an example of the City making a good fath effort to proceed wisely with analysis and planning conducive to a salad bowl society.

If anyone points out I recently wrote the Hasidic stronghold in Williamsburg (Brklyn) won't be gentrified and I said that's a good thing - True, true, I did say that - and I stand by it. If the City tries to gentrify Hasidic Williamsburg eh, I don't know why - but I have a bad feeling about that.
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Old 02-14-2011, 10:05 AM
 
8,752 posts, read 8,634,983 times
Reputation: 4168
BP294 you have no idea what you are talking about, nor do you understand the problems of the Bronx or NYC for that matter. Gentrification has never been a solution...you simply displace the problems to somewhere else, nor are "white" people the magic cure for anything...when has that ever been the case? Using your logic they were able to "cure" this country of the Native American "problem" though.

But I will agree with one statment you made: It is a sad observation...sad that you actually think this.
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