Condos in Mott Haven....... (New York, York: loan, house, neighborhoods)

[DAS]

Guy I think that some communities are known as not being wealthy communities and when people really move up to another level beyond starter level that they don't plan on staying in those communities.

I also think that a person that grows up in certain communities, attains success and decides to stay in that community would also want to help others that are currently there achieve some success, and not make others outside of the community, that are and have been successful, a priority over those already there. That is just my opinion of course and we can agree to disagree on this issue.

[Guywithacause]

Agreed that some people move out of communities that are basically starter communities when their incomes increase...and NYC has played that role for untold millions of immigrants throughout the years. There are also those that would rather stay, but cannot due to seeking requirements/amenities that are not available in thier ciommunity. I hope that this new housing option keeps some of these people seeking a different housing option than 2/3 family homes.

Agree also that there are those that choose to stay to help those that are currently in the community rather than those that are new to the community who may have other resources that locals do not. However, I also acknoweldge that bringing in new people to an otherwise extremely segregated community is healthy and good for the community. It's OKAY to have something available besides low-income housing..and the market rate homes that are selling for $650,000+ show that their is a demand for it...I welcome the new housing options.

[scatman]

Originally Posted by DAS

When those houses were built over there in the area of the Bronx that Jimmy Carter visited in the 1970's they were sold at an affordable rates for the residents. That was helpful. Anyone can see that selling luxury housing in Mott Haven is not helpful to the residents.

....and even then, people were complaining that $52K was too much and "I wouldn't live in the SB"! They complained when Ellery Street in Northern Bed-Stuy was converted in the early 90s from a crack avenue to then-100K two-family homes! Same complaints...."Ellery Street? Crack Avenue? Hell No!"

But the people who took a chance are now cashing in five and tenfold! Some have even paid off their mortgages, and now have full profit!

The point is is that many of us who sat on our ***** and complained, we blew it! There were opportunities to get land in this city. And now that the prices are reeeeeaaaaally out of our reach, in a lot of respects it's too damn late! Who else do we have to blame?

[Guywithacause]

Agreed scatman..they do not realize or remember that back then very few people thought that amount was A: Affordable and B: Worth it for living in the area. Same complaints 25 years ago...same complaints now...and likely the same complaints 10 years from now. All the complaining in the world does not help change communities, does not improve your financial conditions, does not do anything besides..well encourage complaining. Let me know how all the complaining works out for you guys!

Me and Scat are gonna live large, retire early...while you guys are still complaining..

[DAS]

Originally Posted by scatman

....and even then, people were complaining that $52K was too much and "I wouldn't live in the SB"!

I just checked what you were saying with some family members that were and still are in that area of the Bronx at that time. They say that was not true as everyone understood that that was a good price. They say the complaint was at that time that there weren't enough being built. They understand todays prices and feel that more should be built for a comparable price today.

BTW these family members of mine are long time homeowners in the area and have passed some houses down in the family. Use the mortgage calculator that another poster already did and you will see what a person or couple would actually have to make to afford the mortgages that would have to be obtained to buy the properties now. There is nothing being built for a person just rising out of a low income situation. Those are the people I am concerned about, nobody needs to argue for others that have more.

Also most people will not sell an already paid for house to get a new one that probably is not bigger than the current one in the same neighborhood, that will cost more than what they can sell the old one for, and take on more debt.

[scatman]

Originally Posted by DAS

Originally Posted by scatman

I just checked what you were saying with some family members that were and still are in that area of the Bronx at that time. They say that was not true as everyone understood that that was a good price. They say the complaint was at that time that there weren't enough being built. They understand todays prices and feel that more should be built for a comparable price today.

BTW these family members of mine are long time homeowners in the area and have passed some houses down in the family. Use the mortgage calculator that another poster already did and you will see what a person or couple would actually have to make to afford the mortgages that would have to be obtained to buy the properties now. There is nothing being built for a person just rising out of a low income situation. Those are the people I am concerned about, nobody needs to argue for others that have more.

Also most people will not sell an already paid for house to get a new one that probably is not bigger than the current one in the same neighborhood, that will cost more than what they can sell the old one for, and take on more debt.

Point taken.

I'm sure your relatives understand that there are market forces and a few externalities that are driving the prices in New York! I, too have longtime homeowning relatives. I also know the naysayers who wanted the perfect house in the perfect neighborhood for the perfect price. Those are the ones I'm talking about who complained but missed out. Some thought they could "go down south and get some land", but forgot that the salary and job market is lower than that of New York! Some others I know went to the exurbs of Eastern Pennsylvania, where they got nice houses for "New York 1970s prices". But someone forgot to tell them of that 2-2.5 hour commute to work, the increasing commuter fees and property taxes and the commuter rail that's NEVER gonna get built!

Ok, I know I went off a bit.....!

[DAS]

Scatman good points ^. But the cost of building and rehabbing some of these places does not warrent the prices that are being asked for them. Especially in these neighborhoods.

Check the prices in some other working middle class neighborhoods not in the ghetto in the Bronx, Brooklyn Queens and SI, they are looking out for their residents and the homes are being sold at more reasonable rates. So why are the ghetto neighborhoods going from poverty to luxury? There are some beautiful brownstones with all the architectural details in Bedstuy near the subway on quiet treelined blocks that last another 200 years, I bet they'll still be there long after these new homes that are being built now in the South Bronx, and these brownstones are selling for less than what they want for these new homes in the South Bronx. OK some will say that Bedstuy is the Ghetto to and how can you compare the neighborhoods. Maybe you can't but you can compare a brownstone in great shape or one that was rehabbed to a new construction. Some other poster have put pictures up of homes in good neighborhoods selling for much less than these.

[scatman]

Originally Posted by DAS

Scatman good points ^. But the cost of building and rehabbing some of these places does not warrent the prices that are being asked for them. Especially in these neighborhoods.

Check the prices in some other working middle class neighborhoods not in the ghetto in the Bronx, Brooklyn Queens and SI, they are looking out for their residents and the homes are being sold at more reasonable rates. So why are the ghetto neighborhoods going from poverty to luxury? There are some beautiful brownstones with all the architectural details in Bedstuy near the subway on quiet treelined blocks that last another 200 years, I bet they'll still be there long after these new homes that are being built now in the South Bronx, and these brownstones are selling for less than what they want for these new homes in the South Bronx. OK some will say that Bedstuy is the Ghetto to and how can you compare the neighborhoods. Maybe you can't but you can compare a brownstone in great shape or one that was rehabbed to a new construction. Some other poster have put pictures up of homes in good neighborhoods selling for much less than these.

You will be hard pressed to find a brownstone in Bed-Stuy under $800K! And I might be too low!!!!!

My uncle's two family brownstone townhouse in Crown Heights (around the corner from Eastern Parkway) is worth $700K (alright, $650 in a down market, but no lower). Now, what drives those nabes are the location plus historic nature of the brownstones.

Now, there needs to be some type of community initiative where there's some type of financial empowerment and community rehabilitation done by entities such as churches, non-profit groups, etc (See Abyssinian in Harlem, Allen in Southeast Queens! Pleasant Grove in Bed-Stuy might be doing something, too!).

[vitalove]

The neighborhood does not need luxury condos. It needs lower income housing for working class families and it also needs middle income housing for middle class families, but in the form of home ownership. There is a marked difference of how a neighborhood changes when people are given the opportunity to own their own home.

If we wanted an economically diverse neighborhood, then we would make it economically diverse. Rich and poor living together isn't completely economically diverse. We're forgetting the people who are in-between in this kind of market.

And at 700k for a condo, not even for an actual house, would not be possible for a working class or middle class family. So how does this benefit the neighborhood, or New Yorkers as a whole.

The problem with NY now is that we are a city that is forgetting the people down in the pits that actually make this city run. Our sanitation and transit and postal workers, our civil servants, cops and firefighters and our recent local graduates from the CUNY or SUNY system.

We need neighborhoods that cater to all groups of people, not just the rich. We need more middle class and working class neighborhoods, as these are now being squeezed out or turned into rich neighborhoods simply because of skyrocketing home prices and values. It is only benefiting the ones who've gotten in during the 1960s-1980s and early 1990s and not really anyone else.

The real estate market here is relying on an endless population of yuppies, trust fund babies and foreign investors. What they fail to realize is that this population is not endless and further that these investors are looking for a short turnaround a high rental rate (when they leave the city and return to wherever they came from and want to rent out their investment). They are more likely to invest in Manhattan, particularly downtown or even Harlem before they come to outer boroughs. The outer boroughs as they have always been, are for the natives or true residents of NY who want to live here, work and raise families. And it should stay that way. It should not be for the ones who are looking to flip and turn a profit, well those outside of real estate agents and developers.

The bottom line is that we have to preserve our true neighborhoods and make them better for the sake of the residents and not for the sake of the market and the mighty dollar. You're missing the point when you focus only on the market as the market goes up and down (see recent plunges in Dow Jones points). This 'improvement' of the neighborhood isn't for the neighborhood or the residents of the neighborhood. It is for the improvement of someone's bank account or wallet. If it weren't the developer, him or herself, would be living there alongside the new residents.

[Guywithacause]

Alot off great posts! I will agree DAS that there were some in the community that felt it was the right price back then in 1980 for example..but I think we can all agree that there were MANY more people within the community, the borough, and the city as a whole that would not have lived there at any price.

Das I disagree that most people will not sell a house that is paid for to either get a newer but smaller house, or a larger house with more debt. That is what we Americans do best...consume...and trading up.....why do you think these large detached homes in the suburbs exist? Whether is to a larger house, or a new house without all the headaches of an old house is quite common.

Das I also agree that the prices that many command for houses that need to be renovated, or new construction for that matter, is high...and much higher than it was 25 years ago. This is a simple economics lesson that Scat has already explained very well. These homes are only worth what people will pay (Demand) and since the Supply continues to be low throughout the city...prices continue upward. The same holds true for any commodity...there is no inherent value in gold, diamonds, beanie baby's, or a cracker that is in the shape of Elvis...however there was/is high demand and limited supply for these things...which inflates tha value to prices that do not constitute their inherent value (which is ultimately nothing). The same applies to housing in the city, and the Bronx as well...the housing's inherent value is much lower than what the homes are selling for because of the demand and supply...a very simple concept. So don't get hung up on "what something is really worth" because that was NEVER how this society, or civilization has functioned.....ever.

Vitallove...I agree that the neighborhood needs mroe affordable housing..as does the city as a whole. However one "luxury" condo development is a new, minor development that is essentially an anomoly rather than the new standard...let's keep things realistic here. Furthermore, you may not believe these condos are appropriate for the nieghborhood, but the only way to begin to integrate these communities instead of maintianing them as isolated, segregated, low-income communities is to also diverify the housing stock and incomes represented in the communities.

I also should say that these homes are not for the rich...they may seem rich for the community..but this community is also part of the NYC market (now), as a result this is anything but rich...and in fact a $500,000 condo is affordable in NYC...not so much for Mott Haven. So why is it okay to keep people out of these communities just because that can afford a $500,000 condo? Why not move towards more integration?

The real estate market in NYC is in fact NOT relying on yuppies, trust fund babies, or foreign investors...they just happen to make the headlines as of late. You already know what not to believe in the NY Times..so don't buy into the hype. It is/was easy credit, low down payments, the shift of funds form a lackluster stockmarket into hard assets (RE), the focus on revitalizing innercity communties, and the new coolness of living in the city. All of these main factors...PLUS a dash of the headliner makers: yuppies, trustfund babies, and foreign money..is driving demand in the city..and continues to drive demand.

I disagree that the outerboroughs are for the "true" native NYers. The fact remains that NYC, including the outerboroughs, has always been up for grabs by anyone (national & international) with a little money...which is why these constant waves of immigrants continue to reshape entire swaths of the city. As of late however, the headlines play up the yuppies....so Vitalove...now it's a problem? The only true NYers are the working families? The city or boroughs is no more owned or deserved to be for the working class anymore than the outerboroughs should have remained white. Things change....life changes..and this is just another change that the city is experiences.

When the poor need space....much of the city was torn apart..literally..through the creation of these giant housing projects...but it happened...for better or worse. Now there are some that have money (in comparison to your angelic "native" NYers) that are making their way to the boroughs and now it's a problem? Your hypocricy is laughable...I for one am glad to see the new faces, as these communities that you believ are reserved for the "working class" are in dire need of new faces, integration, and mainstream norms and values.