Condos in Mott Haven....... (Amsterdam, Clinton: to rent, movers, homes)

[SeventhFloor]

Originally Posted by scatman

The discussion on this thread brings out the complexity and controversial issues surrounding development in areas like these. On the one hand, a building of 700K condos could be seen as a slap in the face to the locals, many of whom are low income. On the other hand, the development in these areas period is long needed, and the income diversity the neighborhood gets is a response to the long history of class segregation in this city.

u started this post didnt you? good stuff

[Guywithacause]

OGPLIFE...I udnerstand that you find it a big negative when prices are "jacked up"...however that is the country that we live in. We live in a capitalist society...so when things are in demand...the prices go up...when they are not..the prices go down (in general). Would you prefer that we had price caps on items instead of allowing the market to determine pricing? Lets have the government determing the pricing for everything, and what it deems fair for all items, commodities, salaries, services....hmm..now what is this called again...oh yeah... Communism. I think the US has taken its stance on that one already.

Also, I find it interesting that you would not pay "$450,000" for any house. I wonder if that is a recent price or the price you always thought was the highest you would pay. I am sure 7 years ago it was far lower than $450,000....and 10 years from now it will likely be higher. My point is that you $450,000 is a dumb, random number that is only relative to what prevailing prices are.....if housing all crashed and everything was worth $100 would you still agree with that amount? And if prices skyrocketed and everything was a minumum of $1,000,000, would you still say $450,000......I seriously doubt it.

SCATMAN: This was a great thread...I am glad I was able to resurrect it! Keep the good threads coming.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by scatman

The discussion on this thread brings out the complexity and controversial issues surrounding development in areas like these. On the one hand, a building of 700K condos could be seen as a slap in the face to the locals, many of whom are low income. On the other hand, the development in these areas period is long needed, and the income diversity the neighborhood gets is a response to the long history of class segregation in this city.

I see it is a slap in the face. An area neglected for decades that now gets a single overpriced residential development. An area deep in poverty with a low income housing shortage.

This is nothing more the real estate developers rapeing a community and ripping off whoever moves in.

Economic segregation will always be a reality in America. Especially in this city where the disparities are so obvious and in your face. Why try and change the world by creating a residential for the wealthy in the ghetto? What about building a development for the poor in a wealthy area? Now think about it, I bet they will be pissed the hell off. It's the same feeling the other way around.

The thing is, this residential development is not about changing things. It's about making money at the expense of the community.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

OGPLIFE...I udnerstand that you find it a big negative when prices are "jacked up"...however that is the country that we live in. We live in a capitalist society...so when things are in demand...the prices go up...when they are not..the prices go down (in general). Would you prefer that we had price caps on items instead of allowing the market to determine pricing? Lets have the government determing the pricing for everything, and what it deems fair for all items, commodities, salaries, services....hmm..now what is this called again...oh yeah... Communism. I think the US has taken its stance on that one already.

Also, I find it interesting that you would not pay "$450,000" for any house. I wonder if that is a recent price or the price you always thought was the highest you would pay. I am sure 7 years ago it was far lower than $450,000....and 10 years from now it will likely be higher. My point is that you $450,000 is a dumb, random number that is only relative to what prevailing prices are.....if housing all crashed and everything was worth $100 would you still agree with that amount? And if prices skyrocketed and everything was a minumum of $1,000,000, would you still say $450,000......I seriously doubt it.

SCATMAN: This was a great thread...I am glad I was able to resurrect it! Keep the good threads coming.

Prices will only go so high before they come falling back down. As it is now, the pricing is far beyond the worth of the product. Those tiny cheap 3 unit townhouses in the South Bronx are worth no more then 150k. Even then, they are only worth that price becuase they are multiunit. The only reason they cost 600k now in some of the worst neighborhoods of this city is the citywide housing shortage. Not becuase these areas are anymore desireable. Not everyone is an idiot and will pay those prices. Even now these are investors. Fewer and fewer people are willing. They can only go so high. Do you think people will pay a million dollars to live in a 3 unit townhouse in the ghetto? Don't say the areas will change either, the poverty in these neighborhoods is set. Remember the low income housing. NYC is running out of people to rip off. If this keeps up the cities population will stall out (and start to shrink thanks to middle class flight remember). Then you can say hello to disinvestment in the undesireable areas all over again.

[scatman]

Originally Posted by Hustla718

The only reason they cost 600k now in some of the worst neighborhoods of this city is the citywide housing shortage.

Low supply + High demand = High price.

This is taught in Economics 101

Originally Posted by Hustla718

If this keeps up the cities population will stall out (and start to shrink thanks to middle class flight remember). Then you can say hello to disinvestment in the undesireable areas all over again.

It is predicted that in 20 years, 1 million more people will "want to be a part of it....!"

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by scatman

Low supply + High demand = High price.

This is taught in Economics 101

But does that mean it is worth that price? No. A 2 or 3 unit townhouse no more then 20x50 feet (TINY!) in a high crime/poverty area is not worth $600,000. It's barely worth $150,000. The locals are not buying them it is investors making a profit off renting all the units out.

The same goes for these apartments. Not worth it. A rip off to whoever lives in them.

Originally Posted by scatman

It is predicted that in 20 years, 1 million more people will "want to be a part of it....!"

At the current rate of growth...

Do you honestly think this city will maintain that growth with living cost as high as they are (and rising)? It won't. We can't even handle the growth we have now. The city is already overpopulated. Our infrastructure is far behind the growth. First the immigration will will stall out (can't afford to live here even now). Next the yuppies will price themselves out of the city (NYC is running out of idiots to rip off). Combine that with the fact everyone and their mother is leaving NYC besides those two groups mentioned. That means population DECLINE. It also means disinvestment in undesireable areas.

From 04 to 05 (I belive this was the year) NYC lost population.

From 06 to 07 the Hispanic population for the first time in decades showed no growth (I belive it shrank some). The Hispanics have been the driving force behind the city's growth. The city may have lost population once again but we will have to wait till after 2010 to find out for sure.

These are the hints. It's up to you to see the upcoming disaster. The bubble will popp. You don't have to be a real estate expert to see what's going on. The prices have long passed the desirability of the product. It's too damn expensive. Too many people trying to jump on a boat that left a long time ago. All that flipping. It all catches up.

[Guywithacause]

Excellent Economics lesson...direct and to the point. Some people will not understand this! Stick to your guns Scatman...logic, reason, and an understanding of the market will always prevail over emotional baseless statements "that ain't worth it" or "what a rip-off." Education and knoweldge are key....as long as you have those you will make wise, informed decisions while others will sing the same old song..sitting on the sidelines criticizing...watching us improve our personal, professional, and financial lives..as well as our communities!

[Jrock247]

You guys are missing the big picture. New Yorks economy is based largely around finance, which is alittle shaky right now and has been experiencing some layoffs. Also with the continued decline of the dollar, the US will probably become a less attractive destination for immigrants, reducing the demand for housing.

Furthermore, home loans are going to be much more tightly regulated as a result of teh subprime mortgage crisis, which will cut off the supply of easy money that fueled the real estate bubble.

Bottome line Mott Haven is undesirable, most of the South bronx is undesirable. As an investment, you might make money off the area. But I'd hate to live there.

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Jrock247

Also with the continued decline of the dollar, the US will probably become a less attractive destination for immigrants, reducing the demand for housing.

this is ass backwards, a cheaper dollar actually attracts foreigners to buy here because their currency buys more dollars, NYC real estate is a bargain for asians and europeans. Of course they won't be looking to buy in the bronx, affluent people like that would usually be buying in affluent parts of Manhattan

[UpsonDowns]

I love NYC and hope that it continues to grow, but economies do tend to be cyclical. I know people who lost money on real estate in the post-80's boom. And what happens when someone comes up with the better cheaper narcotic? All of these "bad" neighborhoods used to be "good" once. There is no guarantee that many of the "good" neighborhoods today won't go bad.

I want to buy a home in an "up and coming" neighborhood because I want my future kids to grow up in a community of economic and cultural diversity, but I do worry about the economy taking a turn for the worse. But then again, I worried about the tech bubble and that didn't hurt too bad.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Excellent Economics lesson...direct and to the point. Some people will not understand this! Stick to your guns Scatman...logic, reason, and an understanding of the market will always prevail over emotional baseless statements "that ain't worth it" or "what a rip-off." Education and knoweldge are key....as long as you have those you will make wise, informed decisions while others will sing the same old song..sitting on the sidelines criticizing...watching us improve our personal, professional, and financial lives..as well as our communities!

It is not as simple as supply and demand due to a shortage. When an item is priced too high it's demand also falls. Not everyone is a sucker.

Originally Posted by Jrock247

You guys are missing the big picture. New Yorks economy is based largely around finance, which is alittle shaky right now and has been experiencing some layoffs. Also with the continued decline of the dollar, the US will probably become a less attractive destination for immigrants, reducing the demand for housing.

Furthermore, home loans are going to be much more tightly regulated as a result of teh subprime mortgage crisis, which will cut off the supply of easy money that fueled the real estate bubble.

Bottome line Mott Haven is undesirable, most of the South bronx is undesirable. As an investment, you might make money off the area. But I'd hate to live there.

Good points but when the dollar falls it becomes more desireable to people who come from places where their currency has a higher value. The thing is, those are Euro and Asian nations. And the people who have money do not want to live in the ghetto. They don't have to.

South Bronx is a dump, but a lot of real estate people are rapeing it.

Originally Posted by apvbguy

this is ass backwards, a cheaper dollar actually attracts foreigners to buy here because their currency buys more dollars, NYC real estate is a bargain for asians and europeans. Of course they won't be looking to buy in the bronx, affluent people like that would usually be buying in affluent parts of Manhattan

2x

Originally Posted by UpsonDowns

I love NYC and hope that it continues to grow, but economies do tend to be cyclical. I know people who lost money on real estate in the post-80's boom. And what happens when someone comes up with the better cheaper narcotic? All of these "bad" neighborhoods used to be "good" once. There is no guarantee that many of the "good" neighborhoods today won't go bad.

I want to buy a home in an "up and coming" neighborhood because I want my future kids to grow up in a community of economic and cultural diversity, but I do worry about the economy taking a turn for the worse. But then again, I worried about the tech bubble and that didn't hurt too bad.

It is not true all of these "bad" neighborhoods were once "good". Mott Haven has always been a slum. It has always been a lower income blue collar area. Even before the Blacks and Hispanics moved in. Before the fires. West Side Story was shot in Mott Haven. There were a few blocks on the western side of the neighborhood with a small affluent demographic but that is no longer the case. They were leveled for NYCHA buildings, some collapsed and others were just razed. Only about 2-3 blocks worth of Brownstones are left in the area. These brownstones are surrounded by public housing. Most are SRO's.

If you are looking for an area to move, look for an area that will stay solid. Areas very close to the downtown core will always be valued (Midtown). Areas with desireable spacious housing like northeast Queens. Up and coming is just another term for the ghettos they are attempting to hype.

As for diversity, NYC is the WRONG city for that. The communities are very segregated.