Condos in Mott Haven....... (New York, York: real estate market, rental, townhouse)

[Jrock247]

My comment about the falling dollar negatively affecting real estate had more to do with the bronx than manhattan. If the American dollar is weaker immigrants (a group that makes up the majority of the bronx population) will be less likely to come to the US because the money they send home will be worth less.

I guess RE people believe that mott haven could boom because of its proximity to midtown? Wouldn't it be logical for east harlem to gentrify first since its closer to midtown?

[apvbguy]

Originally Posted by Jrock247

My comment about the falling dollar negatively affecting real estate had more to do with the bronx than manhattan. If the American dollar is weaker immigrants (a group that makes up the majority of the bronx population) will be less likely to come to the US because the money they send home will be worth less.

I guess RE people believe that mott haven could boom because of its proximity to midtown? Wouldn't it be logical for east harlem to gentrify first since its closer to midtown?

but the foreigners who have more money will see the that they come with go further, be more valuable, have more purchasing power.

the US has bargain basement prices if you are from most of europe or asia

[SeventhFloor]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

The positives have been touched on already in my prior posts...but because you have been reasonably open minded...I shall reiterate them for you and those that are reading:

1-It diversifies the housing stock/opportunities in the area.
2-It offers an alternative to those that may leave the community in search of this type of housing.
3-It offers this type of housing to those seeking it in Mott Haven, or any other affordable area outside of Manhattan.
4-It adds diversification of income, instead of primarily low-income.
5-It brings more money to the area that can be spent on local business and services..keeping the money local.
6-It will likely also bring people from other areas of the city and outside of the city, helping to desegregate the community..new faces..new ideas...new perspectives to an otherwise isolated community.
7-It will serve as a base and comparable to further assess the market for this type of housing..which may encourage more of this type or housing, at different price levels, different variations,etc.
8-It may also encourage further amenities to open in the area to better suit the different needs of the new residents..and further encourage other business to provide a broader assortment of services and products that may otherwise not be available.
9-The residents will likely care about their homes, inside and out, and take care of the building and the immediate area. This may encourage others to do the same!
10-Any little bit that helps bring Mott Haven more inline with the rest of the city, its prosperity, and normalcy will always help.

Those are just off the top of my head!

1. 1 building a diversifed community does not make.
2. very few if any who live in the community can afford a place here
3. see #2. and you say any affordable place outside of manhattan...u do the math and see what kinda income u have to pull in to live here.
4. see #1.
5. what local business, the bodega? maybe a spanish restaurant or 2. or maybe a used car dealership. name 1 business of importance within walking distance of this building since u live in the area. cause anything of importance is either on the hub or 161st or even 125th in harlem.
6. i'm so hesitant to give u this 1 based on my answers but i'll give it to u anyway
7. lol it has to its the only development of its kind in the area. so u get this 1 by default. the building is a guniea pig.
8. hopefully, for the new homeowners sake!
9. it could go either way...either u inspire me to get out my section 8 housing or i hate on you and deface your building.
10. i guess...but i still stand by what i believe, and say that this building is not the answer.

your stubborness brings good discussion to this thread :-)

[DAS]

Hustla718 says

I see it is a slap in the face. An area neglected for decades that now gets a single overpriced residential development. An area deep in poverty with a low income housing shortage.

This is nothing more the real estate developers rapeing a community and ripping off whoever moves in.

Economic segregation will always be a reality in America. Especially in this city where the disparities are so obvious and in your face. Why try and change the world by creating a residential for the wealthy in the ghetto? What about building a development for the poor in a wealthy area? Now think about it, I bet they will be pissed the hell off. It's the same feeling the other way around.

The thing is, this residential development is not about changing things. It's about making money at the expense of the community.

This is so true, like in Harlem.

4-It adds diversification of income, instead of primarily low-income.

I think that Guywithacause was also saying something about people wanting to stay in the neighborhood when their incomes improve and this area is close to Manhattan. If this is true most peoples income won't go from living in a section 8 or PJ to being able to afford a condo at these prices. It usually goes up to afford something a lot cheaper than these condos.

My past questions on other threads still stands and hasn't been answered why go from low income straight to luxury? What's the point of that? Is there nothing for the working person? People do work over in Mott Haven, just stand on the subway platform at those stations in the morning.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

UpsonDowns...agreed that the economy is cyclical...however what has happened in the last ten years is that the rises and falls that were so pronounced 30+ years ago, are not nearly as extreme. The events of Sept 11 would have likely crippled the city 30 years ago....but today it created a negligible, short lived (3 quarters) of stunted/negative growth. Some jobs were lost, but in the end the city became stronger, diversified its economy more....so its in an even better position now. The sextreme wings of yesteryear seem not to apply anymore...as there is more consistency, diversity, and transparency in the market place.

Sept 11th 2001 wouldn't of crippled the city then or now. A few buildings in downtown Manhattan collapsed. That's it. In 93' they blew up the parking lots of those same buildings. In the 1970s there were numorous terrorist attacks in NYC. This city has been in an upward swing but it will reverse itself in time. It always comes in cycles.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Does this mean there will be no more extreme swings? Of course not.....anything goes in this city...and something as simple as a bad mayor running this city (see Dinkins) can easily throw the city back into an undesireable place again..so who knows. I believe that the extreme swings no longer apply..there are smaller ups and downs, but teh long term trends are obverwhelmingly positive.

You blame Dinkins? Haha. So during Dinkins short term as mayor he made the city go to hell. The city was already shot. What Bloomburg is doing now is making the city money for today. He took the job for status/prestige/credit, he's a billionare. His plans will make things look good now, but the future is very questionable. The city will always follow the nation as a whole. We see crime going up across the country (Including in this city although the stats are fudged). Crime will continue to rise. We see more homeless families today and that will effect us in the future.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

In this city...a weak dollar brings more international money, a strong dollar brings more local money.....there is always money flowing in.

Unless the population is declining which just might happen very soon. Either way those people with money do not want to live in the ghetto.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Lol....I agree that in the current market it will take a longer time to sell these units...but the builder/developer knew that going in...and as we already know..they have already made their money 3x over..so no rush..when they sell..they sell..at the price that the developer will take...either way they have/will make money hand over fist at whatever price.

The objective of this developer is to make money. They are going to do that. At the expense of others. However they are trying to jump on a boat that left a long time ago. The prices are too high. This is the beggining of the end. Not everyone is a fool.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

As for trying to sell this to you...I cannot do that on here..that's silly. What I can say...is that the owner bought it about 7 years ago for..I dunno...$200,000 (or less I don't remember), which at that time I suspect you would have given the same reasons not to buy the entire building: too much money for the area, no amenities. Fast forward 7 years later, condos are being sold at $350,000 -$750,000 (excluding the retail space)...and you are giving the same reason/excuse.

You can't sell it to us becuase there is no benefit to living there you cannot find elsewhere for the same price in this city. Not everyone is an idiot and knows this. I guerentee the people moving in will be very unfamiliar with the area. I also guerentee their will be a lot of bull**** coming out the mouths of the real estate agents involved.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

I wonder if 7 years from now we (or another pair of NYers) will be having the same discussion about condos selling for $1,000,000 in the area with someone giving the same old story: too much money..no amenities. Only time will tell....I still bet on the market rising.

In 7 years... I wouldn't be surprised if the bubble is popped by then with the most recent developments.

Originally Posted by SeventhFloor

why is it silly? obviously you are in support of the project. and in another 7 years this building will be rentals instead of co-ops.

He tells us he cares for the community, yet he is happy when they build expensive condos and wants the projects to be torn down...

These people are not helping that community, they are rapeing it.

Originally Posted by UpsonDowns

That is not true. Places very close to midtown were once "ghetto."

I never said those areas were not ghetto, I said they were always desireable. The city was at a low point at that time. Other areas that were ghettos close to the core were already established when the city was smaller (LES/Hells Kitchen/Midtown period, right outside the downtown core). However the neighborhoods close to the core of the city will always hold value. They will have their ups and down but for the most part they are important. Anything 15 minutes or less from the core by public transportation OR walking distance even better.

Other areas farther away need either good housing stock (Northeast Queens) or they will be ghettos (Far Rockaway).

Originally Posted by UpsonDowns

When I first moved to Manhattan there were trannie hookers and legions of homeless people near the tv studio where I worked in the Meatpacking District.

People were afraid to visit my first apartment in Hell's Kitchen. And when I moved to the East Village, I would joke of the gauntlet I would run from the subway to my apartment: first the hookers and pimps on 12th St and 2nd Ave, then the junkies and pushers on 1st Ave and then I would have to walk in the middle of the street on my block between 1st and A because of the rats covering the sidewalks.

I once worked at a photoshoot in Tribeca and we had to bang on the oustide door before we left the building so the rats would make room for us to walk. The streets were littered with crushed rats that had been run over. That was in 1995 in Manhattan. Those neighborhoods are a lot closer to midtown than Queens and they were bad. How can anyone say that it won't go back. We are just one crack epidemic and a recession away. If the dollar keeps falling, real estate or any investment in the US won't be good for foreign investors and they will pull out.

Who will keep us afloat then? All those goods we produce? Oh right. We don't do that anymore. The financial markets? London is creeping up on us on that end. I truly hope we continue to be an innovative country or else we will be in dire straights.

Yes, many more areas were the ghetto at that time. From Times Square to Hells Kitchen. Today they have been almost completely gentrified, a huge change. Almost all of the low income people have been displaced to the Bronx, Harlem, Brooklyn or left the city. Huge income disparity in this city between neighborhoods.

I know eventually a drug will hit us hard. Heroin is starting to make a slow come back to power. Meth has yet to really hit the city, it's here but it's not popular in the inner city. I think eventually the guys on the street will find a way to market it the same way cocain became crack. Or we might get hit with something else. **** we don't even need a drug, we have the Hip Hop mentality. So many people getting killed over disputes.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

The positives have been touched on already in my prior posts...but because you have been reasonably open minded...I shall reiterate them for you and those that are reading:

1-It diversifies the housing stock/opportunities in the area.

Why would you want to diversify the income in a poor neighborhood with an affordable housing shortage? Why not stick a PJ in the Upper East Side. Oh yeah, the residents will be pissed. The same goes the other way around and it actually hurts Mott Haven much more then it helps.

BTW, one development is not diversifying the income of Mott Haven. These people are trying to make a fast buck nothing more.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

2-It offers an alternative to those that may leave the community in search of this type of housing.

The only people back in the early 90's who bought those townhouses bought them becuase they were very cheap (Subsidized). If they didn't buy the townhouses there, they were going to stay stuck in the PJ's and tenements. For most they didn't have enough money to leave, but had just enough to improve their quality of housing. Today, no one buys the market rate townhouses but investors. They rent them out. The locals cannot afford them. There are also many better options (Like leaving NYC).

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

3-It offers this type of housing to those seeking it in Mott Haven, or any other affordable area outside of Manhattan.

No one is seeking to live in Mott Haven. Who wants to live in Mott Haven? If someone does not want to live in urban Manhattan, why would they move to an urban ghetto in the Bronx? People who don't like Manhattan leave the city or move to Queens/SI/South Brooklyn/fringes of the Bronx.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

4-It adds diversification of income, instead of primarily low-income.

This community does not need income diversification. THEY NEED LOW INCOME HOUSING.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

5-It brings more money to the area that can be spent on local business and services..keeping the money local.

These people don't hang out in these neighborhoods. What are they going to do hang out on the corner?

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

6-It will likely also bring people from other areas of the city and outside of the city, helping to desegregate the community..new faces..new ideas...new perspectives to an otherwise isolated community.

One building will not desegregated the community. This building will have the typical heavy security and be a highly segregated oasis from the surrounding ghetto.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

7-It will serve as a base and comparable to further assess the market for this type of housing..which may encourage more of this type or housing, at different price levels, different variations,etc.

If people do end up moving into their at that price, then we can be sure the bubble will popp very soon. Only so many people will get ripped off.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

8-It may also encourage further amenities to open in the area to better suit the different needs of the new residents..and further encourage other business to provide a broader assortment of services and products that may otherwise not be available.

Where, in the projects? That's what surrounds the place we are talking about.

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

9-The residents will likely care about their homes, inside and out, and take care of the building and the immediate area. This may encourage others to do the same!

Sure...

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

10-Any little bit that helps bring Mott Haven more inline with the rest of the city, its prosperity, and normalcy will always help.

This does not help the community of Mott Haven. This is economic rape. Using the community's undesireability to save money and then make a profit.

Originally Posted by Jrock247

I guess RE people believe that mott haven could boom because of its proximity to midtown? Wouldn't it be logical for east harlem to gentrify first since its closer to midtown?

Mott Haven is not even very close to Midtown. For that I would much rather take the metro north from the burbs. May take about 15 minutes more but oh well.

Originally Posted by DAS

I think that Guywithacause was also saying something about people wanting to stay in the neighborhood when their incomes improve and this area is close to Manhattan. If this is true most peoples income won't go from living in a section 8 or PJ to being able to afford a condo at these prices. It usually goes up to afford something a lot cheaper than these condos.

My past questions on other threads still stands and hasn't been answered why go from low income straight to luxury? What's the point of that? Is there nothing for the working person? People do work over in Mott Haven, just stand on the subway platform at those stations in the morning.

Everyone I know would love to leave Mott Haven. Problem is they can't. Economically they are stuck.

There is no point from going from poverty to luxury. That's the key. This development is not being built for the people of Mott Haven. It's for the pockets of the real estate developers.

[Guywithacause]

Das unless you haev been asleep for the last 15 years...the Bronx, and Mott Haven is particular has not gone from Low-Income to Luxury/high end. Over the past 20 years there has been a concerted effort to provide AFFORDABLE housing in the borough, including new 2/3 family subsidized homes for those lower income in teh community to purchase, stay, and improve the community...which they have..this was the stepping stone. Those homes have since tripled or more in value...generating wealth for many in the borough. The city continues to build affordable housing in the borough, including low-income specific housing, and subsidized housing for those loking tom transition to ownership but have low incomes.

This progression lef to market rate housing that you see today...including 2/3 family market rate homes, as well as the new condo development that you see today. It is a natural progression that has occurred over the last 15-20 years...so to answer your question....it has not gone from low-income to high end/luxury because ONE development is high-end (for the area, not the city in general.)

7thfloor....we shall agree to disagree...I am not stubborn...I just have a different perception. I am very clear on why people choose not to buy homes in areas like Mott Haven....but you should also recognize there are those that have a different perspective and see value where you don't...and they are being rewarded for that in many cases. You don't see the value in those condos...and I am sure the vast majority cannot either...but there are many that do and are buying in the community and making things better.

Yes this is only 1 condo and does not greatly change anything..but you have to start somewhere. There was only 1 development of subsidized housing to improve the area and keep residents from further fleeing....and it did not change anything by itself....and it was certianly a guinea pig at the time...and it was successful and sicne that time many new developments have sprung up...homeownership has increased..and the areas have improved. You have to start somewhere...

[DAS]

Hustla718 says

Everyone I know would love to leave Mott Haven. Problem is they can't. Economically they are stuck.

There is no point from going from poverty to luxury. That's the key. This development is not being built for the people of Mott Haven. It's for the pockets of the real estate developers

.

Yes, that is what I thought. If a person does have ties there and is moving up financially they wouldn't be able to afford something like that, that fast. Most people moving up financially usually have to stick around awhile to help other family members and things like that.

When those houses were built over there in the area of the Bronx that Jimmy Carter visited in the 1970's they were sold at an affordable rates for the residents. That was helpful. Anyone can see that selling luxury housing in Mott Haven is not helpful to the residents.

[Guywithacause]

Das..providing another housing option..1 "luxury" housing option, for the community I think is a positive step. There are more residents that can afford this than you think or the media would have you believe. What's wrong with diversifying the housing stock to include something other than affordable housing? The healthiest communities are those that have a mix of incomes...not just very high or very low end.

[DAS]

Guywithacause says

Das unless you haev been asleep for the last 15 years...the Bronx, and Mott Haven is particular has not gone from Low-Income to Luxury/high end. Over the past 20 years there has been a concerted effort to provide AFFORDABLE housing in the borough, including new 2/3 family subsidized homes for those lower income in teh community to purchase, stay, and improve the community...which they have..this was the stepping stone. Those homes have since tripled or more in value...generating wealth for many in the borough. The city continues to build affordable housing in the borough, including low-income specific housing, and subsidized housing for those loking tom transition to ownership but have low incomes.

Yes this is what I was just posting about. However the homes that are being built now and these new luxury condos are not affordable for the people that are currently living there now. Also there were not enough of the subsidized homes built. A lot more is needed.

I have not been sleeping for 15 years, I can see clearly what is going on. I see where you are coming from because you are already a home owner and would probably like to see property values in the area go up. They would still go up with subsidized affordable homes. When 1 luxury building goes up then others follow and affordable homes are no longer built or rehabbed. You think that you are safe from the effects of this because you have yours. The people that really have theirs don't live anywhere near Mott Haven they don't care about the people of Mott Haven. There are people there already that would like to see some affordable coops, condos and homes built. People that are trying to move up and can't afford yet to move to Riverdale or wherever.

[Guywithacause]

You are making broad assumptions about me..so lets stick to the topic. This condo development is the logical next step for those who pruchased those subsidized homes and have a s***load of equity because of the tripling or more in value..they now have the option of selling their current homes for a huge gain and enjoying the profits by moving into a "luxury" condo. They likely stayed here and still stay here for a variety of reason...family..close to the city...employment...friends...etc....so they now have an option fo staying instead of moving away. I am glad they now have the opportunity to trade up again and continue climbing the ladder IN MOTT HAVEN instead of leaving.

The same applies to others outside of the community...I welcome the new development and the new housing option. You gotta start somewhere...