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Old 07-01-2011, 08:55 AM
 
1,265 posts, read 1,151,351 times
Reputation: 1212
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
And a crane operator does not add $380,000 to society. It is a forced wage set by union standards.

Again - wall street salaries came about organically, whereas a union-based crane operator's salary did not.

With all due respect, from this thread and others it seems you don't have the faintest idea what those in the investing and monetary industries actually do on the job. You seem to resort to insults rather than substance in your rebuttals, which makes me hesitant to take you seriously.

Again, you make asinine generalized statements.

A crane operator may be worth 380k/year. It depends on a number of factors and the value he's contributing to the projects.

The article was talking about relief operators who are used as back ups mandated by union contracts but don't actually put in the time for the most part.

An efficient crane operator is worth his pay. My father has been working in NYC commercial building construction for 25 years and some crane operators are masters of the art and prob worth more than 400k. They are not easily replacable. In fact they are probably harder to replace than an IBD Associate making 350k/year. Riddle me that Sherlock.

You talk out of your ass.
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Old 07-01-2011, 10:10 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 7,047,285 times
Reputation: 5287
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
Again, you make asinine generalized statements.

A crane operator may be worth 380k/year. It depends on a number of factors and the value he's contributing to the projects.

The article was talking about relief operators who are used as back ups mandated by union contracts but don't actually put in the time for the most part.

An efficient crane operator is worth his pay. My father has been working in NYC commercial building construction for 25 years and some crane operators are masters of the art and prob worth more than 400k. They are not easily replacable. In fact they are probably harder to replace than an IBD Associate making 350k/year. Riddle me that Sherlock.

You talk out of your ass.

Hey slugger, keep the insults to yourself and let's try to have a real discussion, ok?

The crane operator would be worth what he/she was paid if that is the price the market brought about, however that is not the case. That person is being paid what the union negotiated the price should be, which is not a true wage.

Try to respond without the insults and maybe I would respect your opinion.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:00 AM
 
1,265 posts, read 1,151,351 times
Reputation: 1212
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Hey slugger, keep the insults to yourself and let's try to have a real discussion, ok?

The crane operator would be worth what he/she was paid if that is the price the market brought about, however that is not the case. That person is being paid what the union negotiated the price should be, which is not a true wage.

Try to respond without the insults and maybe I would respect your opinion.
What do you mean "not a true wage"?

A true wage is whatever both sides agree to, correct? No one imposed these wages on the developers. This is the cost of building in NYC. The union may want wages of 5MM per annum, are they going to get it? They're getting whatever the market could handle or otherwise demand for them would dry up. Are the developers going to go complain to the FED because they ahve to pay more for their building materials as a result of the devaluing of the USD the past year?

BTW, the entire world of finance has been propped up the past few years by QE1, QE2, TARP, Maiden Lane, etc. Is that more or less "market negotiated" than Union negotiated wages? How about the repeal of Glass-Steagall which allowed certain sectors of finance to boom. What role did "the market" play in that? Unless you believe that the US House and Senate were "the market".
If it was up to "the market", Wall Street would be much, much smaller today than it was 4 years ago. It isn't so where did your vaunted market go? Ben Bernanke and the FED along with other central bankers have been taking an exploding **** on your"market" the past few years.


Economics is a bit more complicated than a textbook would have you believe.
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Old 07-01-2011, 11:53 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 7,047,285 times
Reputation: 5287
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
What do you mean "not a true wage"?

A true wage is whatever both sides agree to, correct? No one imposed these wages on the developers. This is the cost of building in NYC. The union may want wages of 5MM per annum, are they going to get it? They're getting whatever the market could handle or otherwise demand for them would dry up. Are the developers going to go complain to the FED because they ahve to pay more for their building materials as a result of the devaluing of the USD the past year?

BTW, the entire world of finance has been propped up the past few years by QE1, QE2, TARP, Maiden Lane, etc. Is that more or less "market negotiated" than Union negotiated wages? How about the repeal of Glass-Steagall which allowed certain sectors of finance to boom. What role did "the market" play in that? Unless you believe that the US House and Senate were "the market".
If it was up to "the market", Wall Street would be much, much smaller today than it was 4 years ago. It isn't so where did your vaunted market go? Ben Bernanke and the FED along with other central bankers have been taking an exploding **** on your"market" the past few years.


Economics is a bit more complicated than a textbook would have you believe.
No...both sides did not agree to that wage. That wage was legally imposed through union negotiation.

Also, I was 100% against the financial bailouts over the last few years. Please don't assume I supposed that legislation simply because it helped Wall Street. I sincerely wish there was no bailout of any industry over the last three years.

Now let's talk about the crane operators again, as you seem to want to bring this discussion off topic. Any union wage in modern times is an inflated wage. It is not an organic price and lowers the net economic growth of the system as a whole. Union workers gaining wages through legal union negotiation is the worker gaining benefit at the expense of the aggregate economy of the industry, and it is NOT a one to one trade off. Whether that trade off is worth it or not is a completely separate question, and often one answered by politics rather than economics. Is that at least something we can agree on?

Again - can we please try to have a conversation? You seem to have a propensity to attack me at every turn. I am trying to talk to you. If you are unable to be civil, then I see no reason to continue this discussion. A lack of maturity in a discussion shows a lot about one's character.
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Old 07-01-2011, 12:31 PM
 
326 posts, read 458,979 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
An efficient crane operator is worth his pay.
"The Real Estate Board there are currently 14 unproductive workers at the World Trade Center earning $400,000 or more in regular pay and overtime."

"The group says that some of the workers pulling down the biggest salaries at the World Trade Center aren't even operating equipment. It says about 50 workers are in unnecessary positions, such as relief crane operators, mandated by the union contract."


Efficiency? uhhhmmmmm....

Sucks for renters...

..looks like developers will double the rent just to cover costs.
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Old 07-01-2011, 12:50 PM
 
215 posts, read 282,233 times
Reputation: 101
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
What do you mean "not a true wage"?

A true wage is whatever both sides agree to, correct? No one imposed these wages on the developers. This is the cost of building in NYC. The union may want wages of 5MM per annum, are they going to get it? They're getting whatever the market could handle or otherwise demand for them would dry up. Are the developers going to go complain to the FED because they ahve to pay more for their building materials as a result of the devaluing of the USD the past year?

BTW, the entire world of finance has been propped up the past few years by QE1, QE2, TARP, Maiden Lane, etc. Is that more or less "market negotiated" than Union negotiated wages? How about the repeal of Glass-Steagall which allowed certain sectors of finance to boom. What role did "the market" play in that? Unless you believe that the US House and Senate were "the market".
If it was up to "the market", Wall Street would be much, much smaller today than it was 4 years ago. It isn't so where did your vaunted market go? Ben Bernanke and the FED along with other central bankers have been taking an exploding **** on your"market" the past few years.


Economics is a bit more complicated than a textbook would have you believe.
"This is the cost of building in NYC"
You sound like these unions have been there forever and will be. This is not the case.

Eventually gross inefficiencies like 500k crane operators will be removed, and costs will go down. Not that hard-working people making a lot of money is always bad. But it is bad when there is no benefit to society for the money spent.

For that kind of money you could train 3 workers and pay their salaries, and they would do exactly the same job as the "500k" guy who considers himself irreplacable. Not that you need a PhD to operate a crane, a year of training is enough for a smart guy.
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:21 PM
 
1,265 posts, read 1,151,351 times
Reputation: 1212
Quote:
Originally Posted by BearMM View Post
"This is the cost of building in NYC"
You sound like these unions have been there forever and will be. This is not the case.

Eventually gross inefficiencies like 500k crane operators will be removed, and costs will go down. Not that hard-working people making a lot of money is always bad. But it is bad when there is no benefit to society for the money spent.

For that kind of money you could train 3 workers and pay their salaries, and they would do exactly the same job as the "500k" guy who considers himself irreplacable. Not that you need a PhD to operate a crane, a year of training is enough for a smart guy.
They won't be there but so won't the sweetheart deals for developer's from the city. It's a 2 way street full of ****.

I have a close friend who's an engineer and works on a lot of these sites. We were just talking about crane operators 2 weeks ago. He's noticed that on most commercial buildings 15 stories and less, the crane operators are now mostly non union. This was not the case even 5 years ago.


An excellent crane operator for skyscrapers is worth the money. It takes much longer than a year to become even average. Their salaries probably should be on par with that of airline pilots. Similar skill set.

As for "no benefit to society for the money spent". Private money doesn't need to have a benefit to society. Even if it did Crane operators are prob on the tail end of that list. There's a lot of **** to wade through if you want to start going that route.

I'm not going to assail crane operators when I know the game in NYC. When developers stop getting their own sweet deals from the City, I'll be the first in line to say how big and bad the crane operators are.
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:41 PM
 
326 posts, read 458,979 times
Reputation: 121
Quote:
Originally Posted by wawaweewa View Post
An excellent crane operator for skyscrapers is worth the money.
Can you take a breather from your union rhetoric and actually READ?

"The Real Estate Board there are currently 14 unproductive workers at the World Trade Center earning $400,000 or more in regular pay and overtime."

"The group says that some of the workers pulling down the biggest salaries at the World Trade Center aren't even operating equipment. It says about 50 workers are in unnecessary positions, such as relief crane operators, mandated by the union contract."
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Old 07-01-2011, 01:48 PM
 
1,265 posts, read 1,151,351 times
Reputation: 1212
Quote:
Originally Posted by newjitty View Post
Can you take a breather from your union rhetoric and actually READ?

"The Real Estate Board there are currently 14 unproductive workers at the World Trade Center earning $400,000 or more in regular pay and overtime."

"The group says that some of the workers pulling down the biggest salaries at the World Trade Center aren't even operating equipment. It says about 50 workers are in unnecessary positions, such as relief crane operators, mandated by the union contract."
I'm not arguing that. That's a given and it is more than unnecessary.
I'm talking about the ones who are actually working on the job. Not the relief operators.
People here are arguing that a working crane operator is not even worth the money. They are and even developers would tell you that.
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Old 07-01-2011, 02:02 PM
 
Location: Sierra Vista, AZ
15,909 posts, read 11,374,951 times
Reputation: 7670
Quote:
Originally Posted by newjitty View Post
ever think that many of the buildings they built are for firms of.. Wall Street
Where the Parasites live. What do they produce besides poverty for the working man
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