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how does anyone have time in their life for this crap..i am concerned more being able to find my car keys then racism..read a book or find something constructive to do..jeeezuz
how does anyone have time in their life for this crap..i am concerned more being able to find my car keys then racism..read a book or find something constructive to do..jeeezuz
Actually the ghettos started several centuries ago and no, it wasn't about the Irish -- it was to isolate the Jews. The Irish were just another ethnic group in a long line to pass through NYC and live in tenements while they fought to better themselves and move on up.
No, that's not factual. The Five Points area was considered the worst slum area in America during the 1850's-1890's. This area, while populated by freed Blacks and immigrants from Italy was HUGELY dominated (in terms of numbers) by the Irish immigrants. The Jewish immigrants were largely based in the Lower East Side slums (the living was not easy there either), and the Chinese clustered together in an area which would become known as Chinatown. While the Irish were indeed just another ethnic group during this time, due to the sheer numbers of them arriving in NYC due to the Great Irish Famine, they were officially recognized as the largest group of immigrants. And due to simply awful landlords (yes, slum lords were alive and well and making a good living even way when), they were herded into this one area.
No history is history and while they were horribly discriminated against, they DID have a VERY bad name at the time, and also, and I'll need to check on this, still stand as causing the largest race riot in not just NY, but also the US. They joined forces with each other - pretty much excluding other groups around them and stood up to any form of abuse or racism directed at them due to being hated for two reasons: (1) Being Irish; (2) Being Roman Catholic.
Personally, I still think one of the coolest stories out there regarding discrimination against Irish Catholics which broke out in Boston and Philadelphia took place in NYC.
The sheer numbers of Irish pouring into the U.S. meant that Catholicism was on the verge of becoming the single largest Christian denomination in America. Many American Protestants held the simplistic view that if the numbers of Roman Catholics were increasing then the power and influence of the Papacy in America was also increasing, threatening America's political independence. Fear of the Papacy thus became fear of the Irish and resulted in outright violence.
In Boston, a mob of Protestant workmen burned down a Catholic convent. Protestant mobs in Philadelphia rioted against Irish Catholics in 1844. The Irish in Philadelphia promptly gathered into mobs of their own and fought back, with the violence lasting over three days. Two Catholic churches were burned down along with hundreds of Irish homes and a dozen immigrants killed.
In New York, Archbishop John Hughes, on hearing of the Philadelphia attacks, deployed armed Irishmen to protect his own churches. Then he paid a visit to New York's mayor and warned him that if just one Catholic church was touched, the Irish would burn all of Manhattan to the ground. Other cities that experienced anti-Catholic violence included; Baltimore, St. Louis, New Orleans and Louisville, Kentucky. By the end of these protests it needs to be highlighted that NOT ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN NYC WAS HARMED.
No, that's not factual. The Five Points area was considered the worst slum area in America during the 1850's-1890's. This area, while populated by freed Blacks and immigrants from Italy was HUGELY dominated (in terms of numbers) by the Irish immigrants. The Jewish immigrants were largely based in the Lower East Side slums (the living was not easy there either), and the Chinese clustered together in an area which would become known as Chinatown. While the Irish were indeed just another ethnic group during this time, due to the sheer numbers of them arriving in NYC due to the Great Irish Famine, they were officially recognized as the largest group of immigrants. And due to simply awful landlords (yes, slum lords were alive and well and making a good living even way when), they were herded into this one area.
No history is history and while they were horribly discriminated against, they DID have a VERY bad name at the time, and also, and I'll need to check on this, still stand as causing the largest race riot in not just NY, but also the US. They joined forces with each other - pretty much excluding other groups around them and stood up to any form of abuse or racism directed at them due to being hated for two reasons: (1) Being Irish; (2) Being Roman Catholic.
Personally, I still think one of the coolest stories out there regarding discrimination against Irish Catholics which broke out in Boston and Philadelphia took place in NYC.
The sheer numbers of Irish pouring into the U.S. meant that Catholicism was on the verge of becoming the single largest Christian denomination in America. Many American Protestants held the simplistic view that if the numbers of Roman Catholics were increasing then the power and influence of the Papacy in America was also increasing, threatening America's political independence. Fear of the Papacy thus became fear of the Irish and resulted in outright violence.
In Boston, a mob of Protestant workmen burned down a Catholic convent. Protestant mobs in Philadelphia rioted against Irish Catholics in 1844. The Irish in Philadelphia promptly gathered into mobs of their own and fought back, with the violence lasting over three days. Two Catholic churches were burned down along with hundreds of Irish homes and a dozen immigrants killed.
In New York, Archbishop John Hughes, on hearing of the Philadelphia attacks, deployed armed Irishmen to protect his own churches. Then he paid a visit to New York's mayor and warned him that if just one Catholic church was touched, the Irish would burn all of Manhattan to the ground. Other cities that experienced anti-Catholic violence included; Baltimore, St. Louis, New Orleans and Louisville, Kentucky. By the end of these protests it needs to be highlighted that NOT ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN NYC WAS HARMED.
Its known as the draft riots. Its the greatest act of civil disobidence in american history, and yes it happened here in nyc. Manhattan burned to the ground along with oprhanages, lord and taylor, christies dept and brook brothers. Black vs white, native vs immigrant, protestant vs roman catholic, democrate vs republican and rich vs poor all sides came out and fought each other and fought authorites. Abraham lincoln pooped in his hat when he recieved a telegram stating that nyc feel to rioters and thay the police was defeated. Fresh soldiers from gettysburg and nearby city forts qulled the rebellion. That riot was race relations at its worst in american and nyc history. Nothing beats the draft riots.
So, if 3 white guys call a black person a n*****, the black person calls them c*******, and the white guys beat him up, then that means that the black guy wasn't so innocent after all?
For the record my comments towards John O'Leary were not meant to offend anyone, but to educate him about history. If you look back on my posts, I spend my time correcting misinformation and ignorance, not offending, which is what I did with Senor O'Leary. It is important to remember just about every group was undesirable, and people wanted to send them back, at some point....but people have short term memories..it's important to remind them. But enough about that.
My general policy is this: If it is something you would not do or say to your mother/brother./sister/kids, it is generally not something you should do or say towards anyone else. It is a very simple policy, and reminds you that we are all someone's mother/brother/sister/kid.
No, that's not factual. The Five Points area was considered the worst slum area in America during the 1850's-1890's. This area, while populated by freed Blacks and immigrants from Italy was HUGELY dominated (in terms of numbers) by the Irish immigrants. The Jewish immigrants were largely based in the Lower East Side slums (the living was not easy there either), and the Chinese clustered together in an area which would become known as Chinatown. While the Irish were indeed just another ethnic group during this time, due to the sheer numbers of them arriving in NYC due to the Great Irish Famine, they were officially recognized as the largest group of immigrants. And due to simply awful landlords (yes, slum lords were alive and well and making a good living even way when), they were herded into this one area.
No history is history and while they were horribly discriminated against, they DID have a VERY bad name at the time, and also, and I'll need to check on this, still stand as causing the largest race riot in not just NY, but also the US. They joined forces with each other - pretty much excluding other groups around them and stood up to any form of abuse or racism directed at them due to being hated for two reasons: (1) Being Irish; (2) Being Roman Catholic.
Personally, I still think one of the coolest stories out there regarding discrimination against Irish Catholics which broke out in Boston and Philadelphia took place in NYC.
The sheer numbers of Irish pouring into the U.S. meant that Catholicism was on the verge of becoming the single largest Christian denomination in America. Many American Protestants held the simplistic view that if the numbers of Roman Catholics were increasing then the power and influence of the Papacy in America was also increasing, threatening America's political independence. Fear of the Papacy thus became fear of the Irish and resulted in outright violence.
In Boston, a mob of Protestant workmen burned down a Catholic convent. Protestant mobs in Philadelphia rioted against Irish Catholics in 1844. The Irish in Philadelphia promptly gathered into mobs of their own and fought back, with the violence lasting over three days. Two Catholic churches were burned down along with hundreds of Irish homes and a dozen immigrants killed.
In New York, Archbishop John Hughes, on hearing of the Philadelphia attacks, deployed armed Irishmen to protect his own churches. Then he paid a visit to New York's mayor and warned him that if just one Catholic church was touched, the Irish would burn all of Manhattan to the ground. Other cities that experienced anti-Catholic violence included; Baltimore, St. Louis, New Orleans and Louisville, Kentucky. By the end of these protests it needs to be highlighted that NOT ONE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN NYC WAS HARMED.
The term 'ghetto' has it's origins in Venice. The ghetto was the Jewish section -- used to isolate them. This is factual, please look it up if you think I am in error. The five corners in NYC comes centuries later.
There was no need to bring up tales of Irish-American history in cities other than NYC. I am not disputing that the Irish had it bad when they arrived in the middle of the 19th century.
Please read up further on your Irish history, you would know that the 'Famine' wasn't. It was a Holocaust in which the British set forth to systematically destroy the Irish. Look into records of food and products being exported from Ireland to Britain during this era. Why was it only the Catholics seemed to perish, yet the Protestants living in Ireland did not?
I'm 1/2 Irish. My family tree on the Irish side is well represented on the Protestant side, but shows many deaths on the Catholic side during this era. Seeing as they didn't come here until the Troubles, my focus has been more on what's happened there at that period of time as opposed to the US.
No, that's not factual. The Five Points area was considered the worst slum area in America during the 1850's-1890's.
Well, OK, as long as you want to talk factual...
The word "ghetto" comes directly from a section of Venice into which Jews were confined during the Middle Ages. I think you'll find that predates Five Points by, oh, about half a millennium!
The term 'ghetto' has it's origins in Venice. The ghetto was the Jewish section -- used to isolate them. This is factual, please look it up if you think I am in error. The five corners in NYC comes centuries later.
There was no need to bring up tales of Irish-American history in cities other than NYC. I am not disputing that the Irish had it bad when they arrived in the middle of the 19th century.
Please read up further on your Irish history, you would know that the 'Famine' wasn't. It was a Holocaust in which the British set forth to systematically destroy the Irish. Look into records of food and products being exported from Ireland to Britain during this era. Why was it only the Catholics seemed to perish, yet the Protestants living in Ireland did not?
I'm 1/2 Irish. My family tree on the Irish side is well represented on the Protestant side, but shows many deaths on the Catholic side during this era. Seeing as they didn't come here until the Troubles, my focus has been more on what's happened there at that period of time as opposed to the US.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fred314X
Well, OK, as long as you want to talk factual...
The word "ghetto" comes directly from a section of Venice into which Jews were confined during the Middle Ages. I think you'll find that predates Five Points by, oh, about half a millennium!
Sorry guys, but I think you misunderstood the intent on my post. I was basing the historical population of immigrants residing in slums/ghettos in NYC ONLY. I think the three of us would agree that we know history fairly well (and truly, with Google these days, who couldn't?!), and I was certainly not attempting to garner the dubious honor of the creation of the first ever ghetto/slum world-wide for the Irish immigrants to NYC. I was attempting to respond to the now hopefully gone Mr. O'Leary and his misguided attempts to make the NYC Irish immigrants look better than what they were. My apologies if I did not make this clear. I was just under the assumption that since we were in the NYC forum, we were discussing ONLY the issues/history of immigration on our fair city.
As to the issue of including other US cities during the specific time-frame I was referring to, I had no choice since the riots against Irish Catholic immigrants (which led to the burning of their churches, convents, slums) began in cities north of us and it was feared (with NYC having the largest population of Irish Catholics at the time), that it was going to EXPLODE into us. As you can see from the blue quoted text of my original post, no harm was done to any Irish owned/occupied property in our area. That, I think, makes us (NY'ers) rather unique.
I won't go into the Irish famine since other than causing the mass immigration to the US at the time by the Irish, it's not really on topic in this particular thread. I can assure you, however, that I am well aware/voiced on the attempted holocaust by the British and urge others with interest in the subject to visit the Irish Hunger Memorial located at the World Financial Center (take Vesey Street to the very, very end and just before you land in the water, you will see the very moving Memorial).
Again, I apologize to both of you for the misunderstanding.
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