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Old 08-02-2011, 02:23 PM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,214,497 times
Reputation: 4168
So do you think we can have freedom of speech in this country, when if you exercise that freedom you are penalized? Using your logic, Blacks can be fired for exercising their right to vote, because their employer doesn't want Blacks to vote..and employers don't have to guarantee you anything, right? By penalizing people for exercising their rights, you are essentially nullifying/dissolving their rights.

While I agree that if someone does something illegal, that is grounds for being fired, like molesting kids. However, what this man did was exercise his right to free speech and voice his opinions/beliefs, something very fundamental to this country. There was nothing illegal about it, the employer just didn't like his beliefs, the same way an employer may not like a Black man's belief that he is equal and can vote.

See the problem?

Last edited by SobroGuy; 08-02-2011 at 02:32 PM..
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Old 08-02-2011, 03:35 PM
 
Location: New York NY
2,429 posts, read 2,234,130 times
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The thing is that the government cannot tell you what to say--which is why the law is all over the place regarding the free speech rights of government workers. But the Constitution says nothing about the rights of employees' speech in any other type of organization. Like it or not, a chruch or private employer can put limits on what you say or do outside of work even if it isn't directly related to your job (like giving up trade secrets or something).

But in real life most employers only rarely do anything about this because its too much trouble and bad for morale--people won't work somewhere where Big Brother is watching and listening to everything they do. So most companies will only speak up about what you do in your off-hours in what they consider extreme situations.

The boss may scream and yell publicly all he wants about my right as a black man to vote. But I could turn around and sue him for creating a "hostile environment" that discrimiates against me under Federal, state and/or local law. And if he actually fired me because I went out and voted -- which happened a lot in the South in the Civil Rights time-- I could also sue him. You can do that now precisely because the laws changed during the Civil rights era. So there are some protections for you at your job from an abusive boss even if you have to go out and spend moeny on a lawyer to get them.

But the basic fact is that with "at will" employees, yes, you can be fired for damn near anything the man wants, with the only protections being employment contracts, anti-discrimination law, and some laws to protect whistleblowers. (Also there are some laws protecting union organizers). Sad to say, the company has most of the rights. You don't.

Last edited by citylove101; 08-02-2011 at 04:01 PM..
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:42 PM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,214,497 times
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I agree with that, but the fundamental issue is this: Do you think we are better off as a society getting penalized for exercising our freedoms? He did nothing illegal, and he voiced his opinions outside of work, yet he is fired. I have a problem with that, and it does undermine our rights, the same way a Black man voting outside of work and gets fired for it undermines his rights.

Why have any of these rights if you are penalized for them, which ultimately undermines our ability to exercise them? I see a bigger issue here that you are missing.
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Old 08-02-2011, 10:47 PM
 
Location: New York NY
2,429 posts, read 2,234,130 times
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I guess the big issue for me is that corporate power in this country has gotten totally out of hand. That is bad and we have to fight it best we can. Big business has Succeeded in making itself look like the every day guy and we all suffer for it. Company like News Corp or GE can legally give millions to campaigns now because the Supreme Court says they have the freedom of speech. But they can fire an employee if they wanted to for their political beliefs and backing someone they don't like. The big company can lobby Congress until they get ways to avoid paying any taxes at all but working people have no clout like that and God help us if the IRS comes after us. The city or state used to use eminent domain to take peoples property just for stuff like highways or airports. Now the courts have ruled that they can do so on behalf of private businesses on the theory that it can serve the "public good" to put up a new shopping center that makes some developer a lot of money.

The big issue to me is just that the more money you have the more rights you do. Money has always talked but it seems to me it's speaking louder now than ever. Every once in a while we get to tame the beast. But it seems now as if the beast is taming us. Fight the power.

Last edited by citylove101; 08-02-2011 at 11:50 PM..
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:49 AM
 
1,225 posts, read 813,425 times
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Big deal not the first and certainly not the last. I had a Black teacher in Brooklyn Tech who was racist as hell. I and others flunked her class, while some barely passed. I was very upset. It was the only class I ever failed in my life. Stuck up, evil ***** who gave extra attention and help to the Black kids but had some type vendetta against non black students.
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Old 08-03-2011, 05:46 AM
Status: "READY FOR WINTER?" (set 18 days ago)
 
Location: Manhattan
11,051 posts, read 10,322,041 times
Reputation: 4579
Quote:
Originally Posted by JayBrown80 View Post
Wow, I see this thread has attracted the tin foil hat brigade.

We have our resident Jew Hater, our resident Catholic hater, our resident anti-government kook, our resident conspiracy theorist....

Such a well rounded case of nutbars!

Is the implication of the post that the Pope WASN'T a member of HITLER YOUTH?
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:04 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
7,856 posts, read 13,431,194 times
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Sobro while I get your argument I have to disagree. Anyone who has really studied the constitution will tell you that your public rights can only be protected up to a point. If a person were to go into an enclosed crowded area and falsely yell that it is on fire they cannot claim protection from being arrested by saying they were excercising free speech. Using that same logic government cannot interfere when a non government employer fires an enployee. If the individual who was fired believes their consitutional rights were violated they have the right to appeal to our legal system.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:08 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
7,856 posts, read 13,431,194 times
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Also I disagree with how your equating a black person being fired for voting with this individuals particular case. No court would treat it the same way.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:17 AM
 
Location: Bronx, NY
7,856 posts, read 13,431,194 times
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You see the individual can still say what he wants to say. Dont confuse that. That right can never be taken away. However the constitution can't guarantee you won't face a repercussion for what you said.
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Old 08-03-2011, 06:52 AM
 
Location: New York City
545 posts, read 491,001 times
Reputation: 362
Even racists have the right to hold their beliefs, however repugnant they may be. I have no idea what his performance in the classroom was, which should have been the only basis for his retention or removal.

In the 1950s, leftwing teachers were hounded and expelled for their political beliefs. That was wrong then, it is wrong now.
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