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Old 09-07-2011, 03:37 AM
Status: "I LOOOVE COLORS" (set 5 days ago)
 
30,114 posts, read 27,192,451 times
Reputation: 17562

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the truth is new york hasnt changed its laws in a decade and laws have actually become less restrictive country wide since the chicago case.

ownership of guns has soared to record levels and gun violence has dropped according to all of you who are raising that point.

the logic of those arguing that gun violence has fallen because of more restrictive laws is sooooooo off base.

i like how most of you parrot things you heard without really knowing the facts yourself. we got those who talk about how ny gun violence has dropped along with our tougher laws but havent a clue what those laws are.

we got the mayor saying we need tougher laws but im not sure how that keeps the illegal ones out and what laws can we add to the other hundreds that dont work..

its all a political circus and is meaningless gibberish.

even if the rest of the country adopted the permit laws of nyc which is itself bordline not legal or may actually be illegal it wont change the illegal flow of things. as it stands now the nyc permit system is slanted to only grant permits to those who can afford the high costs and typically that means living in better areas . the lower income families cant afford the costs of the permit process which on average can run as high as 1,000 bucks when all is said and done.

you need a range to train at and do your paperwork properly, you have around 500 bucks in permit costs and you must have a gun on your permit within 30 days of getting your permit or its void.

its then 345.00 bucks every 3 years with an additional 155.00 if you want a rifle shotgun permit too. its a whopper of an expense if you have more than one permit holder in a family.


nyc is very happy with the way the permit system is working and doesnt want it screwed with but the chicago ruling has new york city in fear that the fact it excludes lower income families from getting one may upset things.

they are looking at dropping the high fees but extending the criteria to not only mental health records and arrest records but to other walks of life too.

jaywalking , driving record, bad credit, fired from to many jobs, will all be part of the criteria to decide who gets a permit or not.

that will open the the doors to lower income areas but also give nypd more latitude to decide who gets a permit and who doesnt.

the current nyc permit system is actually in breach of state laws as far as it lets residence permit holders out of their residence to hunt or target shoot with a permission slip from our commissioner.

thats in contrast to state law which says they cant leave the premises except once a month with written notification in advance to the police dept.

judges have been told to lay low on the legalities of this and the last judge said he was dismissing the questioning of the legality of what nyc is doing because no court has made it an issue and the complaintant failed to show why the nyc residence permit used as is has been problematic for him..

like i said its one big political circus with much ado about nothing.

these laws do nothing to curb the bad guys.

Last edited by mathjak107; 09-07-2011 at 05:06 AM..
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:38 AM
 
Location: Springfield Gardens, NY
1,119 posts, read 1,759,520 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tkak69 View Post
Your data is exactly backwards. Here's a link on crime comparison (from 2000. I'm looking for more recent stats.) http://dsp-psd.pwgsc.gc.ca/Collectio...85-002-XIE.pdf

"In Canada, there were 542 homicides in 2000 resulting in a national rate of 1.8 homicides per 100,000 population. By comparison, there were 15,517 homicides in the U.S., resulting in a rate (5.5) three times higher than Canada’s."
I said the Violent Crime rate in Canada is 3 times higher than the US, not homicide.

Police-reported crime statistics: Table 1 Police-reported crime for selected offences, Canada,*2010*

Table 1 - Crime in the United States 2009

The US stats are from 2009 since that is the latest data available. The Canadian crime data is from 2010. The US rate is 429.4 per 100k, while Canada's is 1,282 per 100k.

If you want to compare Apples to Apples. Here is the Canadian crime rate data for 2009, which shows the Violent Crime rate 1,314 per 100k

http://www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quoti...0720a1-eng.htm
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Old 09-07-2011, 03:50 AM
 
Location: CA
250 posts, read 198,264 times
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LOL because the people that are shooting at each other are licensed gun owners.
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Old 09-07-2011, 06:50 AM
zdg
 
Location: Sonoma County, CA
774 posts, read 1,023,840 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mayorofnyc View Post
I said the Violent Crime rate in Canada is 3 times higher than the US, not homicide.

Police-reported crime statistics: Table 1 Police-reported crime for selected offences, Canada,*2010*

Table 1 - Crime in the United States 2009

The US stats are from 2009 since that is the latest data available. The Canadian crime data is from 2010. The US rate is 429.4 per 100k, while Canada's is 1,282 per 100k.

If you want to compare Apples to Apples. Here is the Canadian crime rate data for 2009, which shows the Violent Crime rate 1,314 per 100k

Police-reported crime statistics: Table 1 Police-reported crime for selected offences, Canada
Let's do Apples to Apples, since you don't seem to want to.

Perhaps you should spend more than 10 seconds looking at these charts and see that what Canada is calling "violent crime" isn't the same as what America is calling "violent crime." I mean, this took all of about 3 seconds to realize. For example, Canada is calling "uttering threats" (!) a violent crime.

So, let's dig a little deeper, shall we?

The USA data only claims aggravated assault, non-negligent manslaughter, homicide, robbery, and forcible rape in their stats. If you look at the exact same stats from the Canada chart, "violent crime" goes down from 1,314 (your number) to 110.5.

So if it's Apples you wish to use, perhaps you should do a little work first. Canada is still one quarter as dangerous as the US when you compare what you're trying to compare.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:25 AM
bg7
 
3,500 posts, read 2,700,534 times
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Spilling someone else's beer in Canada is also considered a violent crime.
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Old 09-07-2011, 08:48 AM
 
Location: 20 years from now
3,793 posts, read 2,877,247 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by samyn on the green View Post
I admire your American pragmatism. You guys will take things to extremes to do things your own way regardless of noticing any underlying disordered philosophy.

It is like stumbling upon a family that does not like to use a toilet and simply defecates all over their house. Since they are American and it is part of their "freedom" to defecate and urinate all over their house the solution is to show up with a 50 gallon drum of formula 409 to scrub that sheethouse down and get it smelling fresh for a little while. It works great because somebody is going to make big money selling these people 50 gallon drums of cleaning products while ignoring the hard work of getting them to act civilized and using a toilet is not only hard but makes no money.

In the same way a "sheethouse" culture is sold on the TV and schools -NYC schools just approved a sex-ed program to formally push transient sex on 6th graders- which leads to the hostility to authority and proliferation of violence. The logical end of the crap culture of degenercy sold in the schools and media is violence in the same way the logical end to not using a toilet is a foul odor. I guess instead of trying to help these people by showing them the right way to live on the strait and narrow it is much easier to show up with a 50 gallon drum of cleaning solution -insiders make money selling cleaning products and building jails- to freshen up their moral sheethouse and the violence festooned all over it. The right thing to do would be to correct the underlying moral issues that leads to this violence.
I'm sorry but the bottomline is that blaming "culture" society etc is useless. You can't hold "society' accountable because "society" cannot speak for itself, nor can "society" be held in a prison. It's a classic psuedo-intellectual scapegoat that sociologists, and people who love to hear themselves speak (nothing personal) have been using for eons now. I remember 20 years ago, people were having this very same conversation during the height of the crack epidemic, and I suspect that 20 years from now people will be having this very same conversation while still obtaining the same results. It's time to come up with a few tangible answers. As I referenced before, the criminals responsible for the shootings had rap sheets longer than the Constitution. Had they had stiffer sentences, they wouldn't have been out on the streets to begin with. Holding the moral fabric of "society" accountable doesn't change the individual deed. And yes, poverty is an excuse. I have been in places far poorer than the people in these neighborhoods could ever imagine and crime was barely existant if at all.

Now if you really want to address the issue of morals, or lack there of...I personally believe that the only uniform code that people can follow that will actually produce results is within religeon. I'm not a huge fan of religion myself, but from my personal observation in underdeveloped (i.e. 3rd world) countries with stagnating poverty with low crime rates; generally those cultures were very religious, and used the bible, koran, etc as a pretext for conduct and behavior.
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Old 09-07-2011, 09:10 AM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,665,287 times
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That's strange, I find that those countries with huge poverty typically is because of religion, or rather the ruling elite using religion to subdue the masses, keep everyone poor and "happy" while the ruling elite stays rich, becomes richer, and expands power. This is what has occured for thousands of years...and the subjugation through religion continues to this day.

But besides that, the simple question remains: Do you believe you are safer with every many/woman/child strapped with a fully loaded gun, or not? When you go to chilis to dinner, do you feel safer knowing every server, cook, manager, family, couples, bus boy, every customer is strapped with a loaded weapon, or not?

And to further that point, do you feel safer with every country having nuclear weapons, or none? The pro-gun lobby would have you believe arming every citizen with a gun makes the world a safe place...I guess it applies to nuclear weapons too then.
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Old 09-07-2011, 11:34 AM
 
4,556 posts, read 3,801,668 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
But besides that, the simple question remains: Do you believe you are safer with every many/woman/child strapped with a fully loaded gun, or not? When you go to chilis to dinner, do you feel safer knowing every server, cook, manager, family, couples, bus boy, every customer is strapped with a loaded weapon, or not?

Quote:
Originally Posted by availableusername View Post
All of you mouthbreathers so vehemently against legal gun ownership are throwing out some ridiculously wild assumptions. You're assuming that every single person would apply for and be able to possess a firearm legally. You're assuming that we are strictly talking about concealed carrying permits, which nobody is. You're assuming that folks who would get the right to a concealed weapon would be a fvckin drunken cowboy.

Take a couple of breathes and think about what you type sometimes. Please.
.
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:07 PM
 
Location: 20 years from now
3,793 posts, read 2,877,247 times
Reputation: 2037
[quote=SobroGuy;20776684]
Quote:
That's strange, I find that those countries with huge poverty typically is because of religion, or rather the ruling elite using religion to subdue the masses, keep everyone poor and "happy" while the ruling elite stays rich, becomes richer, and expands power. This is what has occured for thousands of years...and the subjugation through religion continues to this day.
What countries are you referring to? Because just about every country with a "ruling" elite, both secular and non-secular have used various instruments to subjucate the remaining population. The poverty isn't a result of the religion itself, but moreso of the politics within it. Even the most non-secular governments have suffered from the same problems throughout history. Soviet Russia and Mao's China are an easy reference. My point remains though, generally speaking I find the countries with the highest and most admirable "moral codes" tend to be secular. It doesn't make them perfect by anymeans, but it certainly has its advantages.
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Old 09-07-2011, 12:14 PM
 
8,752 posts, read 9,665,287 times
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Yes...but religion is used as a tool for control, and as a result maintians the ruling elite while keeping the masses at bay. It is not the only tool used, but one of the most effective.
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