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The thing is that "choice" and "preference" is a relative thing.
When Robert Moses began his transformation of the NYC area, it became possible for many to move to the 'burbs and still commute. In the process of building highways etc some communities were pretty much demolished. Those of means (often modest) could move to a "starter home" in the burbs, just as some minorites can now. But now it is more "fashionable" for some of the wealthy to "reclaim" the inner cities. They have a choice--live in a nice burb, or in the city.
If you are a young person of limited means due to low starting salaries etc, you have less of a choice (typically) of where to reside. If you have the means, you move to a "better" area or make "choices" like sharing apts as if you're still in a college dorm. If you don't, you move to a "terrible" area. Then the yuppie influx starts, and you don't always have a "choice" other than to find another "slum" to live in that you can afford--for now.
Those who are being ousted by entities like the Pinnacle group as we speak from upper Manhattan and the Bronx don't have any "choice" in the matter. Whites who start to move in have a lot more options due to income. They can freely "choose" to move in. Those with more money wait until an area is sufficiently "decent" and more expensive.
White flight is generally more voluntary IMO. No one was ousting the residents from the Bronx in the 60s and 70s. But just as now, there was a domino effect, and as more and more whites moved out, more poor moved in. When we "choose" to "reclaim" these areas, it is at the expense of others--just as the rich "reclaim" Manhattan at the expense of the middle class. Sticking the poor in housing projects was the "choice" of city planners. Thankfully, there's now some $$$$ incentives so some of the middle class and working class/poor can have a bit more of a "choice" than before.
Many of the middle class housing projects in Manhattan, the Bronx, and other boroughs are becoming a thing of the past now. The middle class complain bitterly as they are forced out of their longtime NYC "homes." It's a dog eat dog world--what "right" do these people have to live in a rent controlled space in the middle of Manhattan when others pay millions? I'm sure the middle class being priced out don't see it that way though.
But the poor are always a good scapegoat, and everyone looks out for their own best interests--esp when they have a cornucopia of "choices."
And as far as illegal immigration--should the Irish in Woodlawn be exempt or should they do it legally and become NYC taxpayers like the rest of us? They have choices too--when the economic situation improves, back they go to the good old homeland.
A very insightful, well-stated post. Then again, I see in your profile that you are a writer . . . and it shows!
(C-D didn't allow me to rep you, even though I don't recall giving you a rep before).
Wow what a crock of total SH%%. The Irish were probably the worst at tolerating anyone, and that was because they were stuck at the bottom for so long. They tormented everyone..the Jews, the Italians, especially the Blacks and Hispanics. I mean how can you even utter the words tolerance and Irish? Really?
There is a reason why Woodlawn is still 99% Irish, and it's not because they "tolerate" anyone and everyone, it's because they DON'T tolerate anyone who is not Irish. The bartenders and crowd in Woodlawn make it a point to make "outsiders" uncomfortable..they don't want you there and they have no qualms with saying so, to your face or otherwise. I go there every so often because it has the best bar scene in the Bronx, but the locals kepe to themselves and have no interest in "outsiders." Anyone who tells you otherwise, like Webster Ave Guy, is either purposely lieing or doesn't know anything about the nabe. The fact that they keep getting the natives from Ireland makes the area less friendly to outsiders, not more...the newbies come with the "fighting" mentality towards anyone who "doesn't belong."\
But don't take my word for it, try renting an apt if you are black or hispanic, better yet, try walking in the area being "different"...or worse...be black or hispanic and holding hands with a white woman....be prepared for verbal harassment and probable epic street fight. Tolerance indeed!
Drawing upon your knowledge of the Bronx at-large:
How is the PELHAM PARKWAY and adjoining MORRIS PARK neighborhoods in this regard? That is, for instance, if I am white and am seen with a black girlfriend or black wife, am I going to be prone to getting hassled or confronted in the way that you say one would be apt to be in WOODLAWN?
Drawing upon your knowledge of the Bronx at-large:
How is the PELHAM PARKWAY and adjoining MORRIS PARK neighborhoods in this regard? That is, for instance, if I am white and am seen with a black girlfriend or black wife, am I going to be prone to getting hassled or confronted in the way that you say one would be apt to be in WOODLAWN?
Generally not,though you never know who you are going to wind up next to anywhere.Pelham Parkway and Morris Park are much more diverse neighborhoods.
Generally not,though you never know who you are going to wind up next to anywhere.Pelham Parkway and Morris Park are much more diverse neighborhoods.
Thank you for your response Bluedog2.
ON ANOTHER MATTER (RELATED TO SUBWAY ACCESS): From what I've read on this thread and some other threads, it seems to be conveyed that Woodlawn and then also the Pelham Parkway/Morris Park neighborhoods are said to NOT have a subway station within them (i.e., not referring to Metro North commuter rail but rather to an MTA subway stop). Yet it appears to me to have subway stops that serve these mentioned neighborhoods if I look at an MTA subway map. That is, I see subway stops on an MTA Subway map named "Pelham Parkway" and then "Morris Park" and then I see 2 or 3 subway stops in the area which appears to be Woodlawn (e.g., 233rd St., for instance). If I am correct, why are people saying that these named neighborhoods are not served by MTA Subway service but only by Metro North commuter rail?
Likewise, various commenters in different threads have said that "Riverdale has no subway service but just commuter rail service". Yet I see the subway stop labeled "Van Cortlandt Park/233rd St." on the MTA Subway map and that subway stops appears to be within the borders of Riverdale. Is that stop just considered by many Riverdale residents to be too far to walk from most parts of Riverdale?
Note that I remember many years ago, I lived in Manhattan and went to visit a female friend who moved to Yonkers. I took the #1 subway line northbound to the last stop, which I thought to be in Riverdale (it must have been the "Van Cortlandt Park/233rd St." subway stop) and I walked not too long over the border into Yonkers and to the friend's Yonkers apartment for the first time . . . and later walked from her Yonkers apartment back down into the Bronx to the same subway stop to go back to Manhattan. So is the "Van Cortlandt Park/233rd St." subway stop not considered to be in any part of Riverdale but rather in a different neighborhood? And even if it is deemed to be inside an adjoining differently-named neighborhood, that subway stop is considered to be too far to walk for many Riverdale residents (so therefore they say "there is no Riverdale subway service")?
I am very aware of Irish history in the Americas and the fact that many of the earliest Irish arrived as slaves, to the point where many blacks from the USA and the English speaking Caribbean carry some Irish ancestry from the days when they slaved side by side and many Irish women had intimate relations with black men.
You still see that now in the English-speaking Caribbean. The descendants of Scots and Irishmen are usually poorer. They are called "Red Legs" in Barbados. The wealthier Barbadians tend to be of English descent.
ON ANOTHER MATTER (RELATED TO SUBWAY ACCESS): From what I've read on this thread and some other threads, it seems to be conveyed that Woodlawn and then also the Pelham Parkway/Morris Park neighborhoods are said to NOT have a subway station within them (i.e., not referring to Metro North commuter rail but rather to an MTA subway stop). Yet it appears to me to have subway stops that serve these mentioned neighborhoods if I look at an MTA subway map. That is, I see subway stops on an MTA Subway map named "Pelham Parkway" and then "Morris Park" and then I see 2 or 3 subway stops in the area which appears to be Woodlawn (e.g., 233rd St., for instance). If I am correct, why are people saying that these named neighborhoods are not served by MTA Subway service but only by Metro North commuter rail?
Likewise, various commenters in different threads have said that "Riverdale has no subway service but just commuter rail service". Yet I see the subway stop labeled "Van Cortlandt Park/233rd St." on the MTA Subway map and that subway stops appears to be within the borders of Riverdale. Is that stop just considered by many Riverdale residents to be too far to walk from most parts of Riverdale?
Note that I remember many years ago, I lived in Manhattan and went to visit a female friend who moved to Yonkers. I took the #1 subway line northbound to the last stop, which I thought to be in Riverdale (it must have been the "Van Cortlandt Park/233rd St." subway stop) and I walked not too long over the border into Yonkers and to the friend's Yonkers apartment for the first time . . . and later walked from her Yonkers apartment back down into the Bronx to the same subway stop to go back to Manhattan. So is the "Van Cortlandt Park/233rd St." subway stop not considered to be in any part of Riverdale but rather in a different neighborhood? And even if it is deemed to be inside an adjoining differently-named neighborhood, that subway stop is considered to be too far to walk for many Riverdale residents (so therefore they say "there is no Riverdale subway service")?
Don't know why anyone would say PP and Morris Park have no subway when quite obviously they do.
I live in Pelham Parkway and my building is 2 blocks from a subway stop that has trains to both the East Side and West Side.I don't really understand the claim re Woodlawn either as the 233rd st/White Plains Rd stop on the 2 and 5 is only a 6 or 7 block walk from Woodlawn.It's true there is no subway stop actually in Woodlawn but 6 or 7 or even 10 blocks isn't that far in my mind.
Some of Riverdale is only a bit further from a subway stop but most of it is quite far from a subway stop and there are steep hills so I think that's why people say that about Riverdale.
For the overwhelming majority of people in Woodlawn use the 34 or 16 bus to the IRT 4. Some drive and park along Jerome. The next big bunch take the metro north on Webster Ave. The next group takes the xpress bus into the City. #4A if I remember right. Very very little people take the trek over the "Bridge". If you stand by the metro north train at when the train let's out, it's kind of comical. 99% of the blacks go east towards White Plains Rd and Whites start heading up the hill into Woodlawn. Before I get attacked just go look first.
the Van Cortlandt Park stop is at the end of the line on the #1 and is W 242 street
there isn't a Van Cortlandt Park/233rd street station in the system
there is a 231st street station on the #1 which is in Kingsbridge
there is the Woodlawn station on the subway end of the #4 line which is opposite Van Cortlandt Park but that is near E 213th street
the 233rd street station is on the #2 line at White Plains Rd
Hey how is the 1 train? How would you describe it safety wise? I want to take it up to the bronx one day.
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