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Old 10-15-2011, 11:23 PM
 
Location: New York City
559 posts, read 1,064,105 times
Reputation: 387

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A violent clearance of Zuccoti Park may be a win-win solution.

On the city side, it enables the park to be cleaned and restored to public use.

On the occupiers' side, a violent clearance has these benefits.

First, it will increase the visibility of their cause.

Second, it will help them raise funds and garner more support.

Third, they will gain street cred and build up a treasure of anecdotes that they can tell their boyfriends/girlfriends, roommates/classmates, townfolk, and grandchildren, just like those who were at Woodstock. And it's actually a "public good," in the sense that even those who weren't there can claim to have been there and impress others.

Fourth, they will gain the necessary toughening-up that true revolutionaries need. After all, Chairman Mao Zedong of the Chinese Communist Party did say that "a revolution is not a tea party." You can't have a revolution with pizza and Dunkin Donuts and the use of the McDonald's toilets, and Kanye West and Susan Sarandon.
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Old 10-15-2011, 11:31 PM
 
Location: NY,NY
2,896 posts, read 9,432,303 times
Reputation: 2068
Moderator cut: Orphaned comment

Quote:
Originally Posted by DSNYSANMAN View Post
People like you sicken me. Many "wall street occupiers" have parents who work so they can march and protest not just for them but for you. They are doing this for everyone. Yes they wake up in the middle of the day and at night doing drugs and getting laid but come on dont these young kids of working people have a right to have fun when they arent working hard protesting for your freedom. Many of them want what everyone wants. They have student loans that they dont want to pay, they have car loans they dont want to pay, they are in debt and dont want to pay it. Let the tax payers pay it is what they say. If the tax payers can bail out the banks why cant they get some of that free money. I cant believe anyone here disagree with that kind of thinking and if you do disagree then you must be a close minded person who works too hard.
You are a person either, without any knowledge of economics, too lazy amd/or too stupid to educate yourself, incapable of comprehending the monetary system, and just plain unaware of any specifics, details, or politics, which created and fueled the present economic ciircumstance.

How about a little personal responsibility? Educate yourself. Make yourself aware. Determine the Truth and Reality which encompasses the complete issue.

Let me give you an example, YOU and those like YOU, want some of that "free money", well the reality is that you and yours have already gotten some of that "free money'. It is the "free money" which 'people' gorged themselves on, which allowed the people to purchase homes they couldn't afford and to fill those homes with all the 'material' goods of their desire.

The 'people' YOUR working parents, took the money and used it to fufill their greed. Now, you are whinning about the consequences of the actions and choices of YOU and YOURS.

Does so-called 'Wall Street' have culpability? Yes, absolutely. Are 'they' soley respomsible? Absolutely NOT!

The 'people' are equally resonsible for their actions and greed; for their ignorance and stupidyity; for their laziness and failure to make themselves aware of the politics and laws which effect their lives; for voting stupidly and irgnorantly; for just being lousy irresponsible citizens.

Now that 'payment is due' the 'people' are choosing to absolve themselves of responsibility and their greedy part in this fiasco, and lame blame and responsibility, SOLEY, upon so-called 'Wall Street, which in their greed, simply FACILITATED what YOU the 'people' wanted and asked for, "free money"!

****

Now, if it is the 'POOR' that is the issue, the OP makes an excellent point: WHERE ARE THE POOR? Why isn't the makeup of the 'Occupiers' representative of the POOR? The true poor of this city, the Mexicans (who allow this city to function, the Pakistanis who drive our taxis, the black Nannies who take on the mother role for the prosperous liberalls and progressive of Manhattan. Oh, and here's a newsflash, those rich people on Wall Street, those NYC 'banker, most of them are LIBERAL in their politics, though fiscally conservative.

So, you think the people who ride in taxis, order the stuff that the 'Mexicans' deliver, the people who hire black nannies, are capable of representing THEM, the mexicans, taxi drivers, nannies and all the poor who serve them.

Now, who is on crack?

Last edited by bmwguydc; 10-16-2011 at 12:05 AM.. Reason: Orphaned comment
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Old 10-16-2011, 03:49 AM
 
876 posts, read 2,080,700 times
Reputation: 385
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoltrane View Post
Moderator cut: Orphaned comment



You are a person either, without any knowledge of economics, too lazy amd/or too stupid to educate yourself, incapable of comprehending the monetary system, and just plain unaware of any specifics, details, or politics, which created and fueled the present economic ciircumstance.

How about a little personal responsibility? Educate yourself. Make yourself aware. Determine the Truth and Reality which encompasses the complete issue.

Let me give you an example, YOU and those like YOU, want some of that "free money", well the reality is that you and yours have already gotten some of that "free money'. It is the "free money" which 'people' gorged themselves on, which allowed the people to purchase homes they couldn't afford and to fill those homes with all the 'material' goods of their desire.

The 'people' YOUR working parents, took the money and used it to fufill their greed. Now, you are whinning about the consequences of the actions and choices of YOU and YOURS.

Does so-called 'Wall Street' have culpability? Yes, absolutely. Are 'they' soley respomsible? Absolutely NOT!

The 'people' are equally resonsible for their actions and greed; for their ignorance and stupidyity; for their laziness and failure to make themselves aware of the politics and laws which effect their lives; for voting stupidly and irgnorantly; for just being lousy irresponsible citizens.

Now that 'payment is due' the 'people' are choosing to absolve themselves of responsibility and their greedy part in this fiasco, and lame blame and responsibility, SOLEY, upon so-called 'Wall Street, which in their greed, simply FACILITATED what YOU the 'people' wanted and asked for, "free money"!

****

Now, if it is the 'POOR' that is the issue, the OP makes an excellent point: WHERE ARE THE POOR? Why isn't the makeup of the 'Occupiers' representative of the POOR? The true poor of this city, the Mexicans (who allow this city to function, the Pakistanis who drive our taxis, the black Nannies who take on the mother role for the prosperous liberalls and progressive of Manhattan. Oh, and here's a newsflash, those rich people on Wall Street, those NYC 'banker, most of them are LIBERAL in their politics, though fiscally conservative.

So, you think the people who ride in taxis, order the stuff that the 'Mexicans' deliver, the people who hire black nannies, are capable of representing THEM, the mexicans, taxi drivers, nannies and all the poor who serve them.

Now, who is on crack?

I cant believe you are writing what you are. Did you read what I wrote? Did you understand what I wrote? Do you understand what sarcasm is? I work very hard and paid off and paying off my debts. What I wrote did it actually sound like I was supporting those people doing nothing with their time but drugs and getting laid when they arent causing traffic problems with their nonsensical protest.
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Old 10-16-2011, 05:13 AM
 
Location: NY,NY
2,896 posts, read 9,432,303 times
Reputation: 2068
Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
That's the truth. People are outraged when they're sitting behind their computers but to get off their couch and miss an episode of Jersey Shore, nah...not happening....LOL.
Precisely, everybody is whinning, but when the Clinton Administration and Congress passed NAFTA, repealed Glass-Steagall, passed the Commodities Futures Modernization Act; under Bush there was Sarbanes-Oxley and the appointment of Harvey Pitts as SEC chairman, as well as Greenspan dropping rates to essentially zero.

Where were the whinners then? Where were the 'people'? Did they elect Bill Clinton to oversee all the above? Why weren't they marching, protesting, occupying? Did Bill Clinton, and most every incumbent, as well as Bush, get re-elected?

Yes, they were.

So, now, after the fact, whiners whiin and the outragd outrage, they and everyone else have no one to blame, but themselvs.
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Old 10-16-2011, 06:49 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
24,438 posts, read 34,281,030 times
Reputation: 11958
I hope some of you Marie Antoinette types powdered your wigs and took cabs down to Zuccotti Park to distribute some cake.
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Old 10-16-2011, 07:06 AM
 
Location: New York City
559 posts, read 1,064,105 times
Reputation: 387
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
I hope some of you Marie Antoinette types powdered your wigs and took cabs down to Zuccotti Park to distribute some cake.

As the Monty Python double entendre once went, "the peasants are revolting, the peasants are revolting"
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:03 AM
 
Location: Manhattan
24,438 posts, read 34,281,030 times
Reputation: 11958
Quote:
from COKATIE several days ago:
Just to put this into easy terms, anytime I've attended a meeting there has been a subject title. In this case it seems to be "Occupy Wall Street". Following the subject title there are agenda items (or goals). I've found, generally speaking, when you keep these short and simple, things tend to get accomplished. So let's try to find 5 coherent items that the protesters are looking to accomplish:

1. Increase government regulations - particularly in the banking industry (I personally have NO problem with this).

2. Decrease the presence in Washington of lobbyists working on behalf of the self-interest of corporations (I've been a long supporter of that).

3.

4.

5.

See? That's the thing. I don't know what else they want. It's all very cool and hip to have every idiot stroll up to a microphone and spout inane commentary - but unless this "face to the media" or spokesperson can intelligently state their hoped for goals, the main stream media is going to continue to make a mockery of all of them. And that really is a shame because I think there might be some REALLY good points among all the noise.

The one thing that every person has got to grasp is that to be angry at government is to be angry at oneself. We ARE the government. We the people. We are the ones that elect these people to office. They are there to act on OUR behalf. To be OUR voice. Why aren't they held accountable once they get into office. That's like you hiring an employee, paying him a salary, and letting him do what what he wants - including fleecing YOUR profits.

I'm going to say this one more time: You can be as angry as you want at "Wall Street". The fact is that they did NOTHING illegal. They followed the laws and regulations set out and manipulated by our representatives in congress and senate. All this protest is doing is making a lot of noise. But it is not going to accomplish anything other than arrest records for participants.

State the agenda clearly and be concise. Assign blame to named individuals who your group will hold accountable for change. And again: You are in the WRONG city to accomplish this change. The ability to change the things you want lies in Washington or at the local offices of your congress person or senator. Certainly lay siege. But for the love of God, do it in an organized manner and fight the right enemy. If you can manage to feed all those people down there, there ARE strong organizational skills. Use them in a powerful way.
3. Write a tax code that addresses the concentrating of wealth at the top.
This can be done with a progressive tax rate instead of the joke we have now. Make sure people and corporations actually PAY these taxes. Make the Inheritance tax confiscatory (90% over $10 million??)
If you don't pay U.S. taxes, you don't SELL anything here. Period.

This rule is very simple and will directly address the precise problem being vocalized most loudly by OWS...that 1% own the controlling politcal power in the United States by virtue of their wealth.

If money buys democracy, then the money must be better distributed.

4. End the aggressive wars of occupation. They are immoral AND we cannot afford them.
A corollary is cut the military budget by 80%. We cannot afford the currrent level of wealth transfer from poor to rich. We should disavow world domination as govenmental policy.


Anyone want to add #5?

Last edited by Kefir King; 10-16-2011 at 10:34 AM..
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:43 AM
 
8,680 posts, read 14,663,490 times
Reputation: 15329
Quote:
Originally Posted by jcoltrane View Post
Precisely, everybody is whinning, but when the Clinton Administration and Congress passed NAFTA, repealed Glass-Steagall, passed the Commodities Futures Modernization Act; under Bush there was Sarbanes-Oxley and the appointment of Harvey Pitts as SEC chairman, as well as Greenspan dropping rates to essentially zero.

Where were the whinners then? Where were the 'people'? Did they elect Bill Clinton to oversee all the above? Why weren't they marching, protesting, occupying? Did Bill Clinton, and most every incumbent, as well as Bush, get re-elected?

Yes, they were.

So, now, after the fact, whiners whiin and the outragd outrage, they and everyone else have no one to blame, but themselvs.
I don't know what you mean by "whiner." I wouldn't characterize people who support Occupy Wall Street that way, mainly because I support Occupy Wall Street and I'm not a whiner. I'm a sole proprietor. I don't have time to whine.

I did not vote for Clinton either time, although I would now, despite NAFTA and the repeal of Glass-Steagall. I do not have to agree with everything a president does to deem him a good president, and I do not have to agree with everything an incumbent does to deem the incumbent better than anything the opposition spits out. Lock-step went out with Hitler.

But FWIW, there were quite a few protests during the Clinton years. I lived in the D.C. area back then, and it seemed like every other month there was another [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-globalization_movement"]anti-globalization[/URL] demonstration outside the IMF and World Bank. Quite a few people knew what globalization would eventually do.

As far as "free money" goes, one reason people are occupying is because they want jobs. They want to work. A lot of them are students or recent grads who paid a heck of a lot of money and have a ton of student debt and now they can't find work. That is why labor has gotten involved. The jobs have been sent overseas.

So, you might want to rinse out that broad brush you're using.
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Old 10-16-2011, 10:56 AM
 
193 posts, read 277,638 times
Reputation: 260
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kefir King View Post
3. Write a tax code that addresses the concentrating of wealth at the top.
This can be done with a progressive tax rate instead of the joke we have now. Make sure people and corporations actually PAY these taxes. Make the Inheritance tax confiscatory (90% over $10 million??)
If you don't pay U.S. taxes, you don't SELL anything here. Period.

This rule is very simple and will directly address the precise problem being vocalized most loudly by OWS...that 1% own the controlling politcal power in the United States by virtue of their wealth.

If money buys democracy, then the money must be better distributed.

4. End the aggressive wars of occupation. They are immoral AND we cannot afford them.
A corollary is cut the military budget by 80%. We cannot afford the currrent level of wealth transfer from poor to rich. We should disavow world domination as govenmental policy.


Anyone want to add #5?

5. End corporate personhood - a corporation is NOT person they do NOT have the same rights as citizens.

6. Campaign finance reform - end unlimited donations from corporations, hell end unlimited donations from anyone.

7. Audit the Fed - where is this money going? From the semi-audit that happened recently millions were sent to overseas banks...hmm.

8. Reform the lobby system - politicians are catered to and pampered in exchange for favorable legislation. Unfortunately you and me don't have the money to do this therefore our concerns are not at the top of the agenda.

9. Shut down military bases around the world - all they do is protect economic interests, they do not defend our sovereignty. If that doesn't sit well with you then lets let every country that we have a base in build one of their own within our borders.
.
10. Acknowledge Palestine as a sovereign nation - it's time for this to end, seriously.

11. End tax evasion - these banks and companies who spend millions on lawyers to finagle loopholes and pay less taxes than a sanitation worker or a teacher or a student is a big part of the problem. This could be tied in with #3.
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Old 10-16-2011, 11:05 AM
 
8,680 posts, read 14,663,490 times
Reputation: 15329
Being that they closed the LI thread, here are [URL="http://www.city-data.com/forum/21161196-post120.html"]my five[/URL]:


1. Divest corporations of their power over the electoral process.
This includes getting rid of the insane notion that corporations are individuals. Someone else said this, but I agree with it: I'll believe a corporation is a person when Texas executes one.

2. Promote and implement campaign finance reform so that politicians cannot be bought and paid for by special interests.
Personally, I feel that message is a bit diluted by the involvement of unions, as unions, by their very nature, are special interests. However, their involvement does serve a purpose in that they stand up against and protect people from exploitation by their employers, and one of Wall Street's sins is to foster, enhance, and contribute to that exploitation.

3. Stop shipping American jobs overseas. Let's get real: The companies that do this don't do it so they can offer products to the masses at lower prices. They do it to profit the people at the top. The money they don't spend on health insurance, benefits, and fair wages, they keep to themselves. Not only is outsourcing detrimental to the nation as a whole in that it is destroying the working class, it is self-defeating, too: Sooner or later, no one is going to have any money left to buy their products.

4. Punish the white collar criminals who stole from the public and took taxpayer money for their bailouts. The entire upper echelon of Goldman Sachs should be in jail. Ditto the thugs at Bank of America, Citibank, and every other major bank and firm that broke laws. And the punishment should not be fines, but jail time, although they should be forced to pay out of their own pockets, as well.

5. Reinstate [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glass%E2%80%93Steagall_Act"]Glass-Steagall[/URL]. Wall Street has shown us how well it can self-police and avoid conflicts of interest. There is no way a depository institution should be allowed to gamble away the citizens' savings on commercial crap shoots. Deregulation is a giant fail.

There are other side interests, like affordable education, affordable health care, and so on, that funnel into this, but in terms of Wall Street and what it stands for, the five items above are why people are occupying.

Just that you'd never hear that from the mainstream media.
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