Too many "dreamers" in this forum (Ridge, Rose: homes, schools)

[Guywithacause]

Roseba...judging by your response to Elvira, this city is definitely not the place for you, and I suspect it never was. There is a HUGE country outside of NYC where you can afford to buy a house for under $100,000, earn a moderate wage, and live an "affordable" lifestyle. I say take action, stop complaining about the city and make the move to a more "affordable" area where you can find happiness, because the city will not be accomodating your needs anytime soon, if ever.

[Guywithacause]

Elvira...great post. I feel like a broken record but people just don't want to sacrifice to get what they want, and they don't understand that it is a sacrifice to live in this city, as nothing comes cheap or easy..never has!

To think that she find the idea of herself and a kid living in a co-op as ridiculous is utterly laughable, for as recently as 30 years ago (which she claims was much better), there were WHOLE FAMILIES living in 2 room apartments! Welcome to NY!

[Elvira Black]

Thanks Guy. The thing is that things were not all that "rosy" way back then. My mother and her 4 siblings lived in a tenement apt on the LES way back in the day. They slept two to a bed. No amenities, and I mean none. Welfare or other assistance was unheard of. When my grandfather died, my mom had to start working at age 14 and finish high school at night so they could...um...eat.

When my mom married, my parents moved out to Glen Oaks, Queens--at least a 1 1/2 hour commute to the city. My dad did this daily, and didn't have a car. They couldn't afford better. We never had a house. We lived in a one bedroom garden apt with other struggling families.

My ex-b/f's father worked three jobs so they could move from Alphabet City to LI with 4 kids--and it was a modest home.

The good old days weren't always all that rosy in NYC. Yes, after the war, many were able to buy a house for peanuts--but they weren't peanuts back then when everything was cheaper, and Manhattan was not the place most people aspired to. The Bronx was another story...getting an apt on the Concourse was a nice step up then.

And Roseba's conception of coops, while somewhat accurate, is puzzling to me. Most housing in Manhattan is coop based. If you rent here, you will almost inevitably be priced out. A modest coop can be cheaper than renting, even with mortgage and maintenance.

Yes, it is even tougher if you have children. It's rough to have enough breathing space in NYC unless you have the means to buy a house.

Manhattan prices are not declining. I've heard Queens may be a bit, though--but probably not enough to make an unaffordable house affordable to most. That's just the reality.

[Guywithacause]

I agree whole-heartedly. Someone who feels that a mother and kid living in a co-op (gasp!) is completely out of the question and not possible, has no idea about life in the city (then or now), and is someone that would be much better off lving somewhere else. That is a wholw world out there, I encourage those to go find what they seek, as many are just not fit for city life..and that's okay!

[roseba]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

I agree whole-heartedly. Someone who feels that a mother and kid living in a co-op (gasp!) is completely out of the question and not possible, has no idea about life in the city (then or now), and is someone that would be much better off lving somewhere else. That is a wholw world out there, I encourage those to go find what they seek, as many are just not fit for city life..and that's okay!

You of course will get a reaction if you are talking about a third party, from the third party.

FACT: I have lived in an apartment MY ENTIRE LIFE. I grew up in an apartment.

I happen to feel that living in an apartment is OK if you are renting. I don't think it is OK as an owner because their is very little autonomous about owning a SHARE of property contained within the confined of a coop board.

Furthermore, I feel that the cost of a coop is FAR too inflated consider it is ONLY an apartment without any real ownership.

It is unfathomable to live in an apartment... even with kids. After all, I have lived that way my whole life.

But I happen to think that it is a dumb investment. 10 years ago, when you could pick up an investment of a 1 bedroom in Briarwood for $40K, while, a good price, it is a lousy investment in terms of quality. Sure, if you are in it, only to build up equity fine. I'd do it in a heartbeat at this juncture in my life... if it were under $150K. But at $250 K and more, in neighborhoods that are undesireable, I believe it is a crappy investment in terms of quality of life.

Let me put it in terms that you can understand.

I grew up in the East Village around an eclectic bunch of people: literarti, hippies, artists, academics, homosexuals, poly-glat religions and races. The heart of what makes NYC NY.

Now if you are living that life style, it is certainly worth it.

But if you are living in Briarwood, or Richomond Hill, or Ridgewood, or Parkchester... you aren't living that lifestyle. You are basically living in small provincial towns bereft of higher culture.

To throw a big chunck of change down to live in one of those neighborhoods, making an investment that is extremely high for what?....

Living in those neighborhoods you get the worst of both worlds, with none of the benefits. You get low culture (like the suburbs), no bookstores, or events, small, ugly dwellings (like the city.) You get substandard playgrounds (compared to those in upscale neighborhoods), substandard train service (anyone ever take the J train?), erratic garbage pick up, (where you get to smell the garbage on the sidewalk... since it isn't Manhattan.)

What are the advantages of living in outborough neighborhoods? It used to be because they were cheap. They are no longer cheap. They are no longer in the normal range of NORMAL middle class incomes.

If you aren't living in Manhattan, and a few other neighborhoods, then you aren't really enjoying "NYC". If you aren't enjoying NYC, then why pay so much to be near it? It's a poor investment in terms of quality of life.

PS: If you bought your coop in Parkchester 5 years ago, try buying the same coop now... you'll probably be priced out of it.

[Guywithacause]

Roseba as I stated in another thread. You will clearly be "happier" in the suburbs, as city life is not for you, at least not anymore. And that's okay.

I suspect however, that you would have posed the same argument about buying 5 years ago...the naysayers always find a reason not to buy, or not to do something that will improve their lifestyle. It is much easier to complain. Had you purchased 5 years ago, you may be enjoying the lifestyle that you seek, and that many already have in the city.

[scatman]

Originally Posted by roseba

You of course will get a reaction if you are talking about a third party, from the third party.

FACT: I have lived in an apartment MY ENTIRE LIFE. I grew up in an apartment.

I happen to feel that living in an apartment is OK if you are renting. I don't think it is OK as an owner because their is very little autonomous about owning a SHARE of property contained within the confined of a coop board.

Furthermore, I feel that the cost of a coop is FAR too inflated consider it is ONLY an apartment without any real ownership.

It is unfathomable to live in an apartment... even with kids. After all, I have lived that way my whole life.

But I happen to think that it is a dumb investment. 10 years ago, when you could pick up an investment of a 1 bedroom in Briarwood for $40K, while, a good price, it is a lousy investment in terms of quality. Sure, if you are in it, only to build up equity fine. I'd do it in a heartbeat at this juncture in my life... if it were under $150K. But at $250 K and more, in neighborhoods that are undesireable, I believe it is a crappy investment in terms of quality of life.

Let me put it in terms that you can understand.

I grew up in the East Village around an eclectic bunch of people: literarti, hippies, artists, academics, homosexuals, poly-glat religions and races. The heart of what makes NYC NY.

Now if you are living that life style, it is certainly worth it.

But if you are living in Briarwood, or Richomond Hill, or Ridgewood, or Parkchester... you aren't living that lifestyle. You are basically living in small provincial towns bereft of higher culture.

To throw a big chunck of change down to live in one of those neighborhoods, making an investment that is extremely high for what?....

Living in those neighborhoods you get the worst of both worlds, with none of the benefits. You get low culture (like the suburbs), no bookstores, or events, small, ugly dwellings (like the city.) You get substandard playgrounds (compared to those in upscale neighborhoods), substandard train service (anyone ever take the J train?), erratic garbage pick up, (where you get to smell the garbage on the sidewalk... since it isn't Manhattan.)

What are the advantages of living in outborough neighborhoods? It used to be because they were cheap. They are no longer cheap. They are no longer in the normal range of NORMAL middle class incomes.

If you aren't living in Manhattan, and a few other neighborhoods, then you aren't really enjoying "NYC". If you aren't enjoying NYC, then why pay so much to be near it? It's a poor investment in terms of quality of life.

PS: If you bought your coop in Parkchester 5 years ago, try buying the same coop now... you'll probably be priced out of it.

I'll respond to some of your points.

First, Parkchester is a condo. I put zero down on a $120K 1BR, with no board approval for me as a resident. The only thing was the condo board's right of first refusal, which means that if they do not want me, they would have to buy the unit! Very rare, since condo associations would have to put up money! It's becoming the best thing I've ever done! In fact, Parkchester is still affordable, with two bedrooms still under $200K. However, it will go up and up over time.

You've talked about having issues with coops boards. Yes, it is an issue trying to get in, with their strict rules; plus, you are owning shares as opposed to the whole unit! That's why I chose a condo instead. However, even with a coop, owning shares is still better than owning nothing. You still get money back at the end of the tax year (interest on mortgage + a percentage of your maintainance). My mother's $80K coop 20 years ago on Flatbush and Nostrand has now tripled. And the Target Mall isn't even up, yet!

One thing you must realize.....prices go up due to appreciation. And that means the outer boroughs, as well. It's inevitable. I turned down a $60K coop 13 years ago. That same unit is up for sale at $200K. Appreciation happens.

Too many people made the mistake years ago of saying "I'm not paying that price for that neighborhood". And now, they are locked out of a "higher price for that same, but improved neighborhood".

Tiki Barber said...."Oppurtunities are seldom perfect. But if you are not ready for them, they may never come again!"

[Guywithacause]

Scatman..well said! How are you liking Parkchester? How long have you been there..and where did you come from?

[scatman]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Scatman..well said! How are you liking Parkchester? How long have you been there..and where did you come from?

I like it a lot!

Spent 15 years renting in Park Slope, Brooklyn (raised as a child in Tompkins Houses in Bed Stuy). Yeah, I know you think I'm crazy, but I had to consider that the 1BR that I own now is much larger than the studio I rented in at the Slope. And buying studios in the Slope cost a minimum of $350K. Don't even think about 1BR's!

The block I'm on in Parkchester is very quiet, and close to the subway. And one thing I'm learning is that Parkchester is very family oriented. No riff-raffs that I've seen in this neighborhood! I'm not saying it's perfect (no nabe is), but this is a nice neighborhood.

Although I loved them when I was there, I don't need to live near the "ritzy-ditzy" shops and bars (I'm not catching a heart attack just because I'm no longer near 200 Fifth, Sugar Cane or Olive Vine!). A simple subway ride to any of those places will do, if I want to get my eat and drink on!

The Slope is a beautiful neighborhood, and 15 years was wonderful. But I wanted to be a homeowner, and I did not want to bite off more than I could chew! So, hence the move the the Bronx. Peace.

[Elvira Black]

Well said, Scatman. When I was in my 20s and could afford it, the Upper East Side (in a small one bedroom, fifth floor walkup I shared with my b/f at the time) was like heaven to me. I was young, and didn't mind schlepping groceries/laundry up four flights; the dingy hallways and the indifferent super; the 20 minute walk to the subway (so it took at least 40 mins taking super crowded subways to get to the Village, where I worked); the roaches. I was living the dream--but it was the 80s, and like Roseba, I could afford Manhattan then. Now the same apt would be about 4 times as expensive, at least.

My aunt encouraged me to move to her coop development on the LES, which at the time was dirt cheap. I resisted, because the hood was deadsville. But by the time I moved out this year, my coop was charging market rate, and the appreciation was astronomical. A few blocks north there are now very expensive condos. The area is full of bars, restaurants, etc and young folks flock to the area on the weekends. It's within walking distance to Chinatown, the East/West Village, Little Italy, etc.

When I first visited my current b/f's Fordham 'hood 9 years ago, it wasn't a huge culture shock because it had the LES feel to it.

After we broke up, my former b/f and I sold the LES coop and split the proceeds, which left us both enough to get a coop in the Bronx. I paid cash and had enough left over to furnish it the way I wanted to.

At this point in my life--esp. as a middle aged NY'er--the Bronx is fine for me. The amenities of coop living here are plentiful. Gorgeous, landscaped development; 24 hour security; close to all transportation; a panoramic river view; ample space; friendly people; laundry in building; nice sized kitchen and dining room area, etc etc. Maintenance covers gas, electric, and basic cable. Prices have doubled in about 8 years, but it's still in the low 100s for a very nice one bedroom.

It takes 35-40 minutes to get to midtown--the same "commute" I did on the UES back in the day. And I have a "real," beautiful, middle class home, which suits my middle aged lifestyle. As you get older, space and other amenities become more of a "necessity" than a luxury.

The hood is mostly Hispanic/black, but the vast majority of folks are decent people--friendlier than Manhattanites by far. I could care less what color they are or how much/little money they make.

Sure, lots of poor people, but there are still many mom and pop businesses here precisely because the commercial rents are cheaper.

For everyday living, I don't need to be in the heart of Manhattan anymore. Sure, it's great if you can afford it, but I don't consider this a horrible tradeoff--quite the opposite.

And yes, Parkchester is mainly condos, which means you own your property rather than shares. But either way, it's still home ownership, and coop living can be luxe compared to apt living. What's not to like?