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08-23-2007, 10:10 AM
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Back Again?
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Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Bronx, NY
4,140 posts, read 3,459,118 times
Reputation: 597
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I think Elvira made some really good points that reflected a growing class of people in the city. It was a long post, but I read through most of it,  .
I don't even know what you want to call this group of people. Basically fairly young people (mid twenties to mid thirties) who grew up here, have decent jobs, growing careers. They are not poor or working class but they don't make enough to live in the areas that are supposed to be for the middle class. If you happen to fall into this group what are you supposed to do? You don't have tons of options.
One option of course is moving to another state (something I've contemplated more than a few times), but that is very difficult when you have strong ties here and have lived here your whole life.
These type of people move into marginal neighborhoods. They are willing to take the risks because there aren't a lot of options. It is what it is, and they try to make the most of the situation. |
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08-23-2007, 10:16 AM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2007
2,817 posts, read 2,010,693 times
Reputation: 445
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Hustla...
can I ask you a question about the FEDS, background checks and expungements later on today when I get home from work? I thought you may have the appropriate background for this and you sound wordly enough. It's a general question
Sorry to be off topic here
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08-23-2007, 12:27 PM
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Not a member
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Join Date: Apr 2007
434 posts, read 414,638 times
Reputation: 94
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Actually, to the shock of many here, I'm going to back up Hustla:
Many of you have gone to some Liberal college and learned how Non-white = good and White = Bad and How Poor = righteous and Rich = Scum and then you come to our city with your niave and arrogant attitude that simply your oh-so-enlightened preseance is enough to completely wipe away 50 years of racism, self-destructive behavior, drugs, ****ty schools, and a culture of thuggery and hate.
No, that's not how it works. The ghetto will be the way it is no matter how much money we throw at it. Starbucks does nothing to educate a young black child who's being beat by his mom's 9th boyfriend. Every thread has the same bull****:
"Oh, they're all so wonderful people who never, ever do anything wrong and it's perfectly safe and your just all evil-KKK racists. All these issues would go away if only we could simply throw gazillions of bazillions of hard-working taxpayers money on free government handouts that have been proven to fail."
Again, I'm not saying section 8/foodstamps is all bad. I've lived on both and I consider myself a good person. But we have failed to address the cultrue of criminality and entitlement that pervades too many neighborhoods.
Hustla is right on the money, people just don't have a clue. But frankly, that's not my problem. I support gentrification because it will shove the welfare class out of the city and maybe into someplace cheaper where the low-skill jobs these people need to climb up the ladder are readily available. Many of these "immigrants" and "working class" would be better off down south or out west. Give them a bus ticket and off they go.
But then again, without massive urban ghettos, who will make the rap videos, shoe deals, basketball players and ready-made victims for the likes of Al sharpton to exploit? No, America needs the ghetto more than the ghetto needs America. And that, my friends, is the ultiamite racism.
Stop trying to be PC and see **** for what it is. Both and ghetto and NY need to part ways, and hopefully, over time, this will occur as gentrification spreads.
Crime does happen in NYC, and we need to address it. Stop being naive.
I got your back Hustla.
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08-23-2007, 12:35 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: May 2007
Location: Bronx, New York
1,146 posts, read 1,304,210 times
Reputation: 144
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Quote:
Originally Posted by briarwood
Actually, to the shock of many here, I'm going to back up Hustla:
Many of you have gone to some Liberal college and learned how Non-white = good and White = Bad and How Poor = righteous and Rich = Scum and then you come to our city with your niave and arrogant attitude that simply your oh-so-enlightened preseance is enough to completely wipe away 50 years of racism, self-destructive behavior, drugs, ****ty schools, and a culture of thuggery and hate.
No, that's not how it works. The ghetto will be the way it is no matter how much money we throw at it. Starbucks does nothing to educate a young black child who's being beat by his mom's 9th boyfriend. Every thread has the same bull****:
"Oh, they're all so wonderful people who never, ever do anything wrong and it's perfectly safe and your just all evil-KKK racists. All these issues would go away if only we could simply throw gazillions of bazillions of hard-working taxpayers money on free government handouts that have been proven to fail."
Again, I'm not saying section 8/foodstamps is all bad. I've lived on both and I consider myself a good person. But we have failed to address the cultrue of criminality and entitlement that pervades too many neighborhoods.
Hustla is right on the money, people just don't have a clue. But frankly, that's not my problem. I support gentrification because it will shove the welfare class out of the city and maybe into someplace cheaper where the low-skill jobs these people need to climb up the ladder are readily available. Many of these "immigrants" and "working class" would be better off down south or out west. Give them a bus ticket and off they go.
But then again, without massive urban ghettos, who will make the rap videos, shoe deals, basketball players and ready-made victims for the likes of Al sharpton to exploit? No, America needs the ghetto more than the ghetto needs America. And that, my friends, is the ultiamite racism.
Stop trying to be PC and see **** for what it is. Both and ghetto and NY need to part ways, and hopefully, over time, this will occur as gentrification spreads.
Crime does happen in NYC, and we need to address it. Stop being naive.
I got your back Hustla.
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There's one problem....Hustla doesn't support gentrification!
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08-23-2007, 02:56 PM
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2007
2 posts, read 1,255 times
Reputation: 10
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response to briarwood...
briarwood,
hustla touched on the issue of housing and safe neighborhoods vs bad neihborhoods.
he also "kept it real" by pointing out the demographics of such neighborhoods.
you, however, went blurted some diatribe about gentrification, anti-liberalism, yada yada.
you attack so called liberals for their "self centered" thinking, yet you engage in it just as deeply with your support of gentrification and disregard for the working class.
so let me ask you a simple question, since you seem to be so in touch with things...
if gentrification were to run amok to the point where the poor working class were pushed so far to the outskirts of the city, that commuting into work to bus the tables, to sweep the floors, to do your laundry, to handle your bull shiit...
who would do it?
would the fairly decently educated person sitting next to you care to take such a job? would you consider delivering sandwiches through the city streets for below minimum wage, hoping to live on tips?
if jobs were to fall into the hands of "qualified" workers, then wouldnt the demand for pay go up to?
basic economics buddy, think long and hard on this one.
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the point that hustla did mention is that new york city is fast approaching a dangerous threshold....
where the disparity in income is growing, far and wide, and sooner or later, it will become unsustainable.
im not sure if you were fully understanding his post and am questioning your intelligence...
take care,
liberal minded new yorker
ps - you (sadly) think like the typical "capitalist" (though you are hardly of the kind to the truest form because then youd be a billionaire or someone with tremendous clout)
whats yours is yours.
what you dont understand is that there was a precedence set. society is an asset and should be preserved because without the social structure in place, there is no recipe for success of the individual...which is why there are programs like welfare (at least, in theory).
too many people, like yourself, are taught to think for themselves and f*ck everyone else...because its "me me me!"
this division in thought is exactly what is wrong with america today. the middle class is being squeezed dry, yet we direct our ire and anger to the lower class. meanwhile, elitists are laughing their way to the bank with your hard earned money and control your every thought.
one last comment. the welfare system in america (in general) is a joke.
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08-23-2007, 03:28 PM
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Not a member
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Join Date: Apr 2007
434 posts, read 414,638 times
Reputation: 94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjames
briarwood,
hustla touched on the issue of housing and safe neighborhoods vs bad neihborhoods.
he also "kept it real" by pointing out the demographics of such neighborhoods.
you, however, went blurted some diatribe about gentrification, anti-liberalism, yada yada.
you attack so called liberals for their "self centered" thinking, yet you engage in it just as deeply with your support of gentrification and disregard for the working class.
so let me ask you a simple question, since you seem to be so in touch with things...
if gentrification were to run amok to the point where the poor working class were pushed so far to the outskirts of the city, that commuting into work to bus the tables, to sweep the floors, to do your laundry, to handle your bull shiit...
who would do it?
would the fairly decently educated person sitting next to you care to take such a job? would you consider delivering sandwiches through the city streets for below minimum wage, hoping to live on tips?
if jobs were to fall into the hands of "qualified" workers, then wouldnt the demand for pay go up to?
basic economics buddy, think long and hard on this one.
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It should go without saying that a working class should be maintained. However, the fact is NY doesn't need 2 million poor NYers, which is what it has now. Do we need 2 million street sweepers, store workers, and janitors? Not necessarily. we could do much more effectivley with 1/5th of that. Also, maybe upward wage pressure is a good thing, no?
....
Quote:
the point that hustla did mention is that new york city is fast approaching a dangerous threshold....
where the disparity in income is growing, far and wide, and sooner or later, it will become unsustainable.
im not sure if you were fully understanding his post and am questioning your intelligence...
take care,
liberal minded new yorker
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Income disparaty doesn't mean **** in the real world. Poverty does.
If you have your own home, good food, a chance to save, money for the kids college, benefits, retirement and a good job, who cares if some people are making a ****load more than you? Africa has the lowest income disparaity in the world, becuase everyone is poor.
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ps - you (sadly) think like the typical "capitalist" (though you are hardly of the kind to the truest form because then youd be a billionaire or someone with tremendous clout)
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So what are you? Marx? Yeah, go to Russia and tell me how that worked out...
I don't have a problem with giving to the poor. If you read my post (which you didn't), I said many programs are good. But too often, they're seen as something to stay on, which they are not.
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what you dont understand is that there was a precedence set. society is an asset and should be preserved because without the social structure in place, there is no recipe for success of the individual...which is why there are programs like welfare (at least, in theory).
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Rambling bull****. Welfare is meant to be a temporary aid to finding good employment.
Quote:
too many people, like yourself, are taught to think for themselves and f*ck everyone else...because its "me me me!"
this division in thought is exactly what is wrong with america today. the middle class is being squeezed dry, yet we direct our ire and anger to the lower class. meanwhile, elitists are laughing their way to the bank with your hard earned money and control your every thought.
one last comment. the welfare system in america (in general) is a joke.
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The middle class has been squeezed, but how does huge government change that?
Moderator cut: not appropriate
Last edited by Keeper; 08-28-2007 at 04:52 PM..
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08-23-2007, 03:33 PM
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Member
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Join Date: Jan 2007
26 posts, read 30,589 times
Reputation: 14
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The City According to Hustla
Dear Hustla,
Where do you suppose people who are not filthy rich live. Yes we want to believe that our neighborhoods are up and coming because what is the alternative. We live walking distances from projects because where else are we supposed to live. Do you think we don't want to live in the Suburbs with the house and the white picket fence, 2.5 children and a two- car garage. we want those things but who is going to it to us you. So we make the best of what we have, the best way we know how. The fellas in the street don't sell drugs to get poor you know. they sell drug to get the money that pays for the house and the fancy car
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08-23-2007, 04:07 PM
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Junior Member
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Join Date: Aug 2007
2 posts, read 1,255 times
Reputation: 10
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re: briarwood
briarwood,
seems like im not the only one with idle time at work...
....
haha
upward wage pressure you say? and how exactly are we to do this? please re-read my previous post, i think we are running around in cricles here...
...
america is just as communist in structure as russia was, look it up. only that we have a free market place and actual ownership of property.
pure capitalist thought isnt the answer and neither is pure communist thought...
also, communism was "breeded" out of the larger economic stage by structured and older markets....meaning, there is no free trade with a bad country. meaning, the rights of certain individuals are protected while others are deferred.
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welfare IS a temporary aid to find employment...but there are other forms of "welfare" that exist that do not receive your ire (as i state previously)
union welfare, corporate welfare, public welfare, private welfare, yada yada yada...they all co-exist...then why is it that your attention is squarely focused on some poor family getting a free ride with a few free meals?
there is a much much much bigger picture out there and unfortunately, you are missing it.
youd be surprised how much of the bill we (middle class) foot as compared to the rest of the aforementioned systems....
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there was no need to post a jpeg with such a juvenile statement about communism. your ignorance is glaring and i dont think you possess the sensitivity (or foresight) to see 5 feet in front of you...
...
also, im not opening up a debate to say i know everything and you dont...i was just alarmed at your disregard for the lower income.
i think your ideas are there, just that the aim is off.
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new york is a great city. ive lived here my entire life. ive seen it during the crack den filled days of the 70s and 80s. when abandoned buildings riddled the city and were being sold for dollars above the property tax.
there were so many homicides that newsday ran a daily tally on how many homicides had happened the previous day and the current yearly total.
i remember walking down times square and watching someone get stabbed in front of my own eyes.
...
enough of the reminiscing though.
Moderator cut: personal attack
good day.
Last edited by Keeper; 08-28-2007 at 04:54 PM..
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08-23-2007, 05:12 PM
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Senior Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
249 posts, read 320,621 times
Reputation: 55
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This thread is getting interesting. Elvira had a great post. I agree with her and others who have pointed out that for people of a certain income, the choice is either move to a less established neighborhood or move out of the city. Such are the prices and such is life for many of us at this point. My husband and I also seriously contemplated moving out of state as well, There are parts of the south where homes are surprisingly cheap, but for us, with all of our family and friends in the city, the sacrifice wasn’t worth the lower price. (We also found very little career opportunity where we were looking.) There are, of course, other options, such as squeezing into too small an apartment or moving a couple of hours away and seeing your family only on weekends. Don’t forget paying more than you can afford on housing and falling into serious debt. I’ve known people who have done or are doing all of these things. (Actually we were guilty of the too small apartment thing for quite a while.)
About low-income/section 8 tenants, I do know that it is harder for Section 8 tenants to find places to live, especially in such as tight market. I agree that there tends to be more problems with this population, although I would not want to paint everyone on assistance with the same brush. The culture of intergenerational dependency is changing, but there are people clinging on still trying to take advantage of the system as much as they can. As I said in another thread we recently rented out an apartment on Craigslist, listing no programs, and had our pick of qualified applicants. Once you have a Section 8 tenant though, it’s very hard to get them out if you want to.
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08-23-2007, 05:47 PM
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Not a member
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Join Date: Apr 2007
434 posts, read 414,638 times
Reputation: 94
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jimjames
briarwood,
seems like im not the only one with idle time at work...
....
haha
upward wage pressure you say? and how exactly are we to do this? please re-read my previous post, i think we are running around in cricles here...
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No, you are. If you knew one thing about capitalism, you'd know that less people competeing for the same amount of jobs = competion among employers which = more pay (as incentive)
Quote:
america is just as communist in structure as russia was, look it up. only that we have a free market place and actual ownership of property.
pure capitalist thought isnt the answer and neither is pure communist thought...
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I don't know why I'm even replying to such utter ignorance. Do you even read?
Quote:
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also, communism was "breeded" out of the larger economic stage by structured and older markets....meaning, there is no free trade with a bad country. meaning, the rights of certain individuals are protected while others are deferred.
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what the heck does this have to do with...anything? 
Quote:
welfare IS a temporary aid to find employment...but there are other forms of "welfare" that exist that do not receive your ire (as i state previously)
union welfare, corporate welfare, public welfare, private welfare, yada yada yada...they all co-exist...then why is it that your attention is squarely focused on some poor family getting a free ride with a few free meals?
there is a much much much bigger picture out there and unfortunately, you are missing it.
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I don't know why you keep bringing up section 8 and food stamps. I personally think both these programs should not only be kept, but expanded to serve the middle class.
and yes, I am aganist both corporate welfare and offshoring, we need those jobs here
Jeeze, you even argue with me when we agree  .
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Quote:
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there was no need to post a jpeg with such a juvenile statement about communism. your ignorance is glaring and i dont think you possess the sensitivity (or foresight) to see 5 feet in front of you...
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And the personal attacks continue....
Quote:
also, im not opening up a debate to say i know everything and you dont...i was just alarmed at your disregard for the lower income.
i think your ideas are there, just that the aim is off.
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I don't hate the poor, that's a misnomer. NYC's blessing is the idea that people can come from all over and make something of themselves. I love the Peruvan resturants and the Indian cab drivers cracking jokes and the smell of Jamaican cooking. I don't want to see the immigrants go or the middle class.
The welfare/crime slime? That's a different story.
I think you and me have far more in common that you would like to think
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Quote:
new york is a great city. ive lived here my entire life. ive seen it during the crack den filled days of the 70s and 80s. when abandoned buildings riddled the city and were being sold for dollars above the property tax.
there were so many homicides that newsday ran a daily tally on how many homicides had happened the previous day and the current yearly total.
i remember walking down times square and watching someone get stabbed in front of my own eyes.
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Then you know where I'm coming from. I'm sorry if my views are not PC. I don't base them on race or class so much as characther, and I'm sorry, I will not miss a single criminal or hack who leaves.
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Quote:
enough of the reminiscing though.
you are still a philistine and i, a prudent liberal a$$wipe.
good day.
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Admission is the first step towards reform. And I'm alot more Liberal than you think. I plan on voting for Kuncinich. Top that.....
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