Too many "dreamers" in this forum (New York, York: mortgage, maintenance)

[StPete2Charlotte]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

Why are people who wish to move to the Bronx and other areas necessarily "hipsters?"

And no, people during the Great Depression (and before) did not all hit a rough patch for 10 years. Many were born poor--very poor (my parents and grandparents, for one). Perhaps the diffference was that the culture of the time included tighter knit families and communities and stressed the value of education.

Though in my b/f's case, valuing education was not instilled in him, but the work ethic was. He worked very hard for many years (and crappy money) until he couldn't anymore due to a disability. But he spent years in a Bowery flop and also in homeless shelters. He ate at soup kitchens and out of garbage cans.

But he never stole from anyone; he didn't beg from anyone. He went to libraries, museums, and enjoyed those things available to him in the city free of charge.

Poverty is not a hopeless cycle for everyone. I think that supportive family life as well as stressing education and hope can make a big difference. But when you're surrounded by utter hopelessness and no positive role models--and drugs and broken families and violence--it can be damn hard to find alternatives. But it can and is done, though the odds are tougher, esp when the school system is such a mess, for starters. But I don't think it's always hopeless or inevitable. Tough, but not necessarily hopeless.

Great post, yeah that is really what it comes down to.
Kids who know people who love them and want them to succeed, and that are given a decent education succeed... Others slip thru the cracks. Sadly though, that is the majority.

[Elvira Black]

Thanks St. Pete...I read the Norwood News religiously to get an idea of what's happening--good and bad--in the area. What puzzles me is that there is a lot of resistance to building new schools/classrooms in the area.

But I also see some programs that are being set up to try to help young people, though sometimes it's a big struggle. The Fordham area has very little in the way of places for young people to go after school. There is an effort to convert the old Kingsbridge library space into a community center, I think, but it's a tough battle.

I also saw an article about a program the police ran this summer to interact with local kids to instill bit more trust and positive experiences. Another summer program where kids helped clean up and maintain the local parks. Things like that go on, but the area still doesn't have a lot of alternatives for young people.

One thing that has always disturbed me is the fact that so many people have kids they can't afford or even don't want and abuse. I think birth control should be freely offered. Once you have a kid you're too young and poor to care for, your odds of getting out of poverty seem very slim for yourself or your kids.

[Guywithacause]

I agree that the poverty we witness today is something profoundly different than the poverty of our grandparents generation. In those days, those in poverty were, for the most part, trying to escape poverty through hard work and education, and maintained respect themselves, their families, and their communities, with stronger family ties and religious virtues.

Today, those in poverty have also been infected with the ghetto/thug culture that permeates life inside and outside the ghetto, to different degrees of course. Today, those in poverty in the inner-city can be 3 generations of poverty, ignorance, thuggery, laziness, rudeness, lack of self-respect/self-esteem, with no interest in self-improvement with little to no values, morals, or respect for anyone or anything. This mentality is glorified in the media, and worn as a badge of honor and a viable and "normal" lifetsyle. Ever wonder why all these "parades" showcase/promote so heavily those in the entertainment industry that supposedly represents the only item of value to so many "cultures?" You will never see these "celebrations" feature the many Professors, Scientists, Entreprenuers, and Tycoons, because these "cultures'" place credibility and value on the thug culture and lifestyle, not on education, self-improvement, or work.

Of course, I am beating a dead horse as anyone with 1/2 a brain is aware of these facts. The only way to change the mentality, and eventually turn around, these communities, is not to abandon them (again), but to reintroduce mainstream society and values. These communities need to see a new perspective, new faces, hear new ideas, see people caring about their communities, with strong families, and bring back reality and civilization back to the inner cities. It will not be done by focusing on the same, tired excuses of "stay away, high crime, not worth it" but instead , "I am not leaving, I care." Those with the vision to see something better for these people and communities, and move-in, or choose to remain in these communities, will be the driving force that ultimately makes the difference, not more government assistance and coddling.

[Elvira Black]

One of the differences I perceive is that even today, many new immigrants do have a strong work ethic/family values. Thus, a decent number of the Hispanic immigrants I see seem to have good values and good kids. A larger number of African Americans have been able to get ahead as well, but I'd venture that one of the crucial factors is this:

Most immigrant groups aspire to assimilate into the American culture and come here voluntarily for a better life, even if it's tough. Even if first generation immigrants can't speak English well and don't venture far out of their neighborhood, many work hard and try to ensure that their kids will be fully assimilated and reap some of the benefits of their labor.

African Americans are the only group that were brought here against their will. In my view, many have not become "assimilated" in the same way as new immigrants due in part to this heinous legacy in our country, which is a very cruel irony.

No, that doesn't excuse rampant crime, and there's a lot more opportunity out there for minorities than there used to be. But the mainstream culture today--for all youth--is very different than years ago as well. Putting Britney Spears, Paris Hilton, etc out as role models doesn't give young women much of a realistic or positive message either.

And drug abuse and crime is not the excluslve purview of the inner city or minorities either nowadays--not by a long shot.

Revitalizing the community is a great goal, but much may depend on how actively involved new residents try to get in the larger community. That's something that's pretty rare in this city, especially now. Many of us are struggling so much just to get what's "ours" that the last thing we have "time" for is community involvement. And we tend to see other classes as competing for precious space. The poor fear displacement and gentrification, and the middle class fear being pushed out altogether. The result is sometimes resentment and distrust--and indifference.

I'm a little less optimistic that the "newcomers" will be able to help others out of the poverty cycle just by moving in. But for those who are interested, there's plenty to get involved in. I'm not going to pretend I've done anything positive thus far other than enjoy the fact that the many residents, shop owners, etc. I've encountered are very decent, even friendly people. I feel like I AM a member of the community in that respect, and I think that is a good first step.

But I try to keep informed of what's going on, and there is a lot of positive community force here in the Bronx. As a (retired) writer who often writes about NYC, maybe I could get involved more in that capacity in the future.

I was invited to attend a conference at Fordham U this past spring on affordable housing and learned a lot about what the community is doing to keep the Bronx livable for the poor here, and it's quite impressive and encouraging. (Since I'd freelanced for the Times in the past, i tried to pitch the story to them, but there was no interest, probably because, well, what Times readers care about helping the poor in the Bronx? Articles about the middle class affordability crunch are much more their speed.) But I read about and witness positive developments which seem to be making a difference, slowly but surely. Perhaps it's time for me to get more involved.

I also see firsthand from my b/f's situation how hard it is to get ahead if you're poor here. The rents are rising; Con Ed seems to charge whatever it wants to; and wages are not increasing.

The basic cost of living for residents of my b/f's building is much more egregious than it is for me as a property owner. My maintenance covers gas, electric, and basic cable. My b/f's utilities along with his Section 8 rent pretty much wipe him out. I'm pretty sure that Con Ed is ripping these folks off blind, just for starters. And so on and so on.

Sorry for the ramble.

[Elvira Black]

I also don't think it's a case of "handouts" for the poor but rather the city being committed to basic quality of life for all its residents. This includes decent schools, clean and safe parks, cultural offerings, access to internet for children, etc. City money is being invested in the Bronx, and even a rehabbed park makes an incredible difference. I've seen it firsthand. These should not be "luxuries" for the middle class only. They should be available to all New Yorkers.

[Guywithacause]

I do not believe that it is the newcomers responsibility to help the community out of the poverty cycle, nor that they must be involved in the community at all, although I would think they would have some interest in the growth and development of the community in which they now reside. However, I think merely demonstrating the other side of life to people and children that are surrounded solely with all that is wrong and dysfunctional in these communities has an indirect impact, and one that is just as valuable. Seeing hope in the form of presentable, respectful, educated, and caring community members is a beacon of light in an otherwise dark abyss of poverty. Furthermore, I think it is more the responsibility of current (longtime) members of the community to stand up and implement changes, whether it be the few "successessful" members that have remained, or have returned, or those that are our community and politcal leaders. We have seen this happening more and more, much of which you have heard about at your Fordham University meeting.

There is no underestimating the hurdles involved with overcoming the cycle of poverty that is so infectious and poisonous today, which is why many have given up on themselves, their families, and their communities. However, the poverty that I am specifically addressing is not what we typically associate with substantial newly arrived immigrant communities (South American for ex), which is typically family oriented, religious, respectful, ambitious, and hard working. The poverty I am referring to is the generational poverty that is enslaved by lack of self-respect, crude behavior, thuggery, and a lifestyle the emulates all that is wrong and dysfunctional. This poverty has become the lifestyle of choice for far too many, and viewed as normal, acceptable, and "real." It is this morbid mentality that must be broken before any changes can truly affect the lives of those trapped in the inescapable generational poverty.

As for the city being committed to basic qualities of life for all its resident, I firmly believe the city has been firmly committed, however I believe throwing money at the problem, and providing the shackles of government handouts (section 8, welfare, etc) have become an end rather than a means to something else. These solutions have proven unsuccessful, and dramatic changes to the social welfare state the city has created is required to help more people transition from the cycle of poverty to at the very least, a new, tax paying working class for the city (which it has succeeded in doing to some degree).

I agree that every community needs decent schools, however you cannot have a decent school without decent students. The school itself will not dictate success, as policies are uniform across the board throughout the city. It is the same reason why these communities are not "good"...it is the community that needs to step up and make things better, as well as the city. Schools can only get better if they have students that are respectful, courteous, focused, interested, and have the support of their families, much of which is missing in these neighborhoods. Until the social ills are addressed, there can not be "good" schools.....the recipe for a good school is just not possible, and all the money, bureaucracy, and teachers can only improve the situation marginally (as has been proven). Bring together a group of kids that want to learn, that have the support of family and the community, and you will find that every school is a decent school, despite budget cuts and mismanagement.

[Elvira Black]

The short answer is I think you paint the community with too broad a brush.

And aside from everything else, if these problems are addressed and improved, we will all benefit from less crime and better quality of life.

[steve1873]

Originally Posted by Freak

The only way to fight negativity is with positivity. That's what the New York Times is doing. That's what we're doing. Promoting the positives will help bring in positive people, and eventually the positives will outnumber the negatives.

It's the way life works.

I have to agree with Hustla.

Positives and Negatives take place in Physics.

It's the truths that matter most.

Even if they happen to be inconvenient

[Guywithacause]

Since you are adept at Physics, you should also know a mass that is in motion tends to stay in motion. And that has been the negativity against the Bronx for the better part of 30 years. If we do not change the focus, and bring about change, change that must start first with attitudes, then the cycle of negativity will not end.

Truth is what matters most, indeed. But which truth are you conveying? The one of massive investment in the Bronx, the middle class that is returning, the increasing rate of homeownership, the growing Bronx economy, the improvement of quality of life? Or the other truth, one that emphasizes the persistent poverty in the borough, the higher crime rates, and the subpar schools? Both are true, but I choose to focus and promote the positive, while working to improve the negatives, versus continually focusing on the negative and not much else.

[Elvira Black]

Guywithacause, I agree..and despite my previous Pollyannaish post, it's probably unrealistic to expect most newcomers to actively engage in community improvement for the poor, though some might. The programs I've heard of seem to be a joint effort of community leaders (church, university etc) with current residents, and banks willing to invest in the area. The city has committed more funds to the borough, and in the Fordham Road area (and others, I'd imagine), local merchants have created a Business Improvement District as well. Good signs, I think.

However...I think most current newcomers are a rarer breed...people who are not afraid to move to the Bronx despite the negative rep...and generally more optimistic about the neighborhood and its current residents, which seems like a good thing.

Real "yuppies" will continue to eschew the borough, and the continuing commitment to lower income housing will likely prevent mass gentrification anyway.

I also think that some young folks from other areas just starting out are more likely to consider the Bronx now because it is still affordable. When you're young and eager, you can put up with a lot more inconvenience for the sake of living in NYC.