Too many "dreamers" in this forum (Ridge, Rose: housing, condos)

[jjbradleynyc]

Originally Posted by Hustla718

I understand this is a site that attracts people that are pro urban living, however some things I read are ridiculous. Too many people think every single neighborhood is "up and coming" or that the city is only going to get better.

I've seen this city through some of it's worst times, and some of it's best. Some may say I have a bias view becuase I am a cop. I just use my head. I am the realist on this board by far. Remember, we are going through some so so times right now. However from what I have seen over the years, this city is setting itsef up for another cycle of decline. Police shortage and rising crime. It's happening belive it or not. The stats lie and the shortage is real. An increase in income disparity. I see a city which has made it impossible for anyone above low income but not yet upper middle class to survive. Only the wealthy can truely live it up in this city. Housing selling for MUCH more then it's worth. From a housing standpoint, NYC is the biggest rip off in the USA.

All I will say is be careful about where you move. I'm surprised people on here have not called Rikers Island "up and coming."

Use your head. If safety is an issue, use your head. Any area around public housing (NYCHA, section 8, HUD, ect) or a high poverty/low income area will have crime above the national average. Usually lot of single mothers, unguided kids. Mostly generational poverty with a history of alcoholism, drug abuse, incarceration, ect. These are the most likely canidates to become criminals. When you have a lot of possible criminals, you have a lot of crime.

Just use your head. If safety is a big concern, don't move to Harlem for example. **** the NY Times, anyone with half a brain knows a lot of crimes are commited in the area thanks to the above mentioned factors.

Just remember, all cities will always have good and bad areas. Not every inch of NYC is up and coming like the Times might lead you to belive. I get pissed reading forumers recomending young females to live in ****holes.

Oh and just becuase you lived walking past a housing project on the LES, doesn't mean the area is crime free. The "I did it and never had a problem/i'm fine" post are by far the stupidest post in this forum.

Another problem is people who live in certain areas, then boost them becuase they live there. Enough with the bull****.

Appreciate your comments--some good advice--but you sound like you need to get the hell out of NYC! How long have you lived here--did you grow up here?

[roseba]

Originally Posted by NooYowkur81

I think Elvira made some really good points that reflected a growing class of people in the city. It was a long post, but I read through most of it, .

I don't even know what you want to call this group of people. Basically fairly young people (mid twenties to mid thirties) who grew up here, have decent jobs, growing careers. They are not poor or working class but they don't make enough to live in the areas that are supposed to be for the middle class. If you happen to fall into this group what are you supposed to do? You don't have tons of options.

One option of course is moving to another state (something I've contemplated more than a few times), but that is very difficult when you have strong ties here and have lived here your whole life.

These type of people move into marginal neighborhoods. They are willing to take the risks because there aren't a lot of options. It is what it is, and they try to make the most of the situation.

That's me.

• Grew up here
• Strong Family Ties
• Decent Job/Income
• Live in a undesireable (but safe) neighborhood
• Feel like I have no choice, but to leave the state

[roseba]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

I don't think this economic struggle for a decent way of life/decent housing is anything new. As a boomer, many in my parents' generation were far from well off and sacrificed a lot to try to give their families a better life. They'd lived through the Depression and saw first hand how rough it could get. However, I think our culture today reinforces our expectations that "getting ahead" should be a quick and easy process. Look at the mortgage crisis we're in now and the incredible levels of credit card debt. No one wants to defer gratification for a longer term goal.

I don't think a young person today who wants to move to Manhattan on a low starting salary is any more "entitled" to this than those of my parents' generation who wanted to move from the inner city to the 'burbs. They had to work hard, budget, scrimp and save to get there--and often start out in areas that were less than desirable.

As to what to call myself--I guess I'm a Manhattan expatriate who moved to the Bronx (lol).

My landlord was a bread truck driver. He bought the building I'm living in approximately 30 years ago for $40K. Now it's worth about $700K. I live in a safe but marginal neighborhood. It has always been a neighborhood that you expect to go to, to sleep, and nothing more.

Anyway, can you name a place anywhere in the boroughs, where a truck driver can buy a piece of property?

I understand that demographics of neighborhoods change, but the last time I looked, the cheapest housing one could get starts at $400K in a very dicey neighborhood. No truck driver, teacher, fire fighter or police officer can afford to buy a house NOW in this city.

There is something very wrong with that.

[Elvira Black]

You can still buy a nice one bedroom coop in the Bronx for around 110K. If you have a bit more, you can get a very big coop space there. Houses are another story, though definitely bargains if you can afford them.

You can get a studio on the LES in a nice coop for less than 400K, and one beds starting around 450K.

It's what the market will bear. Like anything else, the more desirable the area, the pricier. There's just limited land space here, and they're not building any more any time soon! Folks living in Manhattan, unless they're billionaires, don't live in their own townhouses either. It's all apartments.

In the area you're in, 30 years ago that's what the market dictated because wealthier people didn't want to live there and, of course, everything was cheaper, housing included. Now, even if you consider the area less than great, others are obviously willing to pay top dollar to live there. If you bought property back then, in hindsight it was a wise choice.

In real estate, if you wait til everyone discovers an area, it's too late. Some folks are moving to Jersey City now, for instance. Soon it will be unaffordable too---and more desirable, esp since it's close to Manhattan.

The national housing market is a mess now too--lots of foreclosures etc. It's very tough for the middle class in this country today, for many reasons. But unlike other areas of the country where housing values are declining, in NYC they continue to rise. That's why I think it's prudent to buy even a modest piece of coop property in the area, if you can--though even that is not foolproof (coop boards can raise the maintenance, mess up finances, etc). But it's more secure than renting, and you're not throwing your money away making someone else richer. More than likely, your investment will pay off, as it did for the truck driver way back when.

[TalonR718]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

You can still buy a nice one bedroom coop in the Bronx for around 110K. If you have a bit more, you can get a very big coop space there. Houses are another story, though definitely bargains if you can afford them.

You can get a studio on the LES in a nice coop for less than 400K, and one beds starting around 450K.

It's what the market will bear. Like anything else, the more desirable the area, the pricier. There's just limited land space here, and they're not building any more any time soon! Folks living in Manhattan, unless they're billionaires, don't live in their own townhouses either. It's all apartments.

In the area you're in, 30 years ago that's what the market dictated because wealthier people didn't want to live there and, of course, everything was cheaper, housing included. Now, even if you consider the area less than great, others are obviously willing to pay top dollar to live there. If you bought property back then, in hindsight it was a wise choice.

In real estate, if you wait til everyone discovers an area, it's too late. Some folks are moving to Jersey City now, for instance. Soon it will be unaffordable too---and more desirable, esp since it's close to Manhattan.

The national housing market is a mess now too--lots of foreclosures etc. It's very tough for the middle class in this country today, for many reasons. But unlike other areas of the country where housing values are declining, in NYC they continue to rise. That's why I think it's prudent to buy even a modest piece of coop property in the area, if you can--though even that is not foolproof (coop boards can raise the maintenance, mess up finances, etc). But it's more secure than renting, and you're not throwing your money away making someone else richer. More than likely, your investment will pay off, as it did for the truck driver way back when.

Well said! You raise many valid points on the board. Keep up the good work ;-)

[scatman]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

You can still buy a nice one bedroom coop in the Bronx for around 110K. If you have a bit more, you can get a very big coop space there. Houses are another story, though definitely bargains if you can afford them.

You can get a studio on the LES in a nice coop for less than 400K, and one beds starting around 450K.

It's what the market will bear. Like anything else, the more desirable the area, the pricier. There's just limited land space here, and they're not building any more any time soon! Folks living in Manhattan, unless they're billionaires, don't live in their own townhouses either. It's all apartments.

In the area you're in, 30 years ago that's what the market dictated because wealthier people didn't want to live there and, of course, everything was cheaper, housing included. Now, even if you consider the area less than great, others are obviously willing to pay top dollar to live there. If you bought property back then, in hindsight it was a wise choice.

In real estate, if you wait til everyone discovers an area, it's too late. Some folks are moving to Jersey City now, for instance. Soon it will be unaffordable too---and more desirable, esp since it's close to Manhattan.

The national housing market is a mess now too--lots of foreclosures etc. It's very tough for the middle class in this country today, for many reasons. But unlike other areas of the country where housing values are declining, in NYC they continue to rise. That's why I think it's prudent to buy even a modest piece of coop property in the area, if you can--though even that is not foolproof (coop boards can raise the maintenance, mess up finances, etc). But it's more secure than renting, and you're not throwing your money away making someone else richer. More than likely, your investment will pay off, as it did for the truck driver way back when.

If Elvira Black is in the house, she can have three pieces!

I think people need to be schooled on what the market is, and how it works! People should also learn how different markets affect different regions. Schooling should start with the youth, for future generations. Unfortunately, our school system needs to do a better job at teaching much more than just markets!

[Guywithacause]

Elvira...you are spot on. How are people complaining that they are "stuck" buying a house for $400,000 in a "dicey" area?! Everyone has to start somewhere, and places that are so fabulous now were "dicey" when people were buying it for peanuts. Hells Kitchen was called that for a reason!!!

You have to start somewhere, you are not automatically entitled to live in a "fabulous" area for the price you deem fair or reasonable. Many of those people who purchased in the Upper West side that is uber-awesome now, lived through poor conditions and paid their dues. You should do the same...welcome to adulthood!

[Elvira Black]

Thanks guys. The skeptics will always exist, but there's still opportunity to own a little piece of the pie in NYC--but maybe not for long. To me, it seems about as foolproof an investment as you can reasonably hope for. Nothing is guaranteed 100 percent, but the odds are in your favor...if the history of the NYC housing market is any indication. Nothing ventured, nothing gained!

[roseba]

Originally Posted by Elvira Black

You can still buy a nice one bedroom coop in the Bronx for around 110K. If you have a bit more, you can get a very big coop space there. Houses are another story, though definitely bargains if you can afford them.

Co-ops are one of the best kept secret rip-offs. You don't own your apartment, you own shares of the building. On top of your mortgage, you have to pay maintenance. And then, in order to do any kind of renovation, you need to answer to the coop board. In some buildings, you have to ask permission to have a dog. That's not home ownership. That's renting with special tax breaks!

Other cities people can buy a home outright. They don't need to buy coops.

You can get a studio on the LES in a nice coop for less than 400K, and one beds starting around 450K.

And are we all single people who can live in a coop? I am married with a kid. So for a little less than 10x the average household income, I can live in a closet with two other people? That too is a rip off, to say the least. That also is a down payment of what? $40K? or $80K.

Try to be reasonable. What middle class jobs allow you to afford that kind of down payment / mortgage?

Folks living in Manhattan, unless they're billionaires, don't live in their own townhouses either. It's all apartments.

Actually some do. Especially those who bought in another era where housing wasn't so far out of the mainstream from regular incomes.

Apartment living should be a matter of choice, not a matter of economics to all those but people with very high incomes.

In the area you're in, 30 years ago that's what the market dictated because wealthier people didn't want to live there and, of course, everything was cheaper, housing included.

Wealthier people still don't want to live there. Something is wrong when getting a house in the most undesireable neigbhorhoods are upward of $400K.

Now, even if you consider the area less than great, others are obviously willing to pay top dollar to live there. If you bought property back then, in hindsight it was a wise choice.

No, top dollar is much higher. But it might as well be top dollar. Most home owners here bought a long time ago. Most of them do not have jobs that would support buying the same house today.

In real estate, if you wait til everyone discovers an area, it's too late. Some folks are moving to Jersey City now, for instance. Soon it will be unaffordable too---and more desirable, esp since it's close to Manhattan.

Who are you talking to? Some kid from Podunk that just got off the bus? I don't need an economics or sociology lesson.

EVERYWHERE... even TERRIBLE, AWFUL, NO GOOD, UNDESIREABLE... you pick the adjectives is EXTREMELY expensive.

The national housing market is a mess now too--lots of foreclosures etc. It's very tough for the middle class in this country today, for many reasons. But unlike other areas of the country where housing values are declining, in NYC they continue to rise.

Actually, they are falling. People are selling for less than they would have six months ago.

[roseba]

Originally Posted by Guywithacause

Elvira...you are spot on. How are people complaining that they are "stuck" buying a house for $400,000 in a "dicey" area?! Everyone has to start somewhere, and places that are so fabulous now were "dicey" when people were buying it for peanuts. Hells Kitchen was called that for a reason!!!

You have to start somewhere, you are not automatically entitled to live in a "fabulous" area for the price you deem fair or reasonable. Many of those people who purchased in the Upper West side that is uber-awesome now, lived through poor conditions and paid their dues. You should do the same...welcome to adulthood!

Yes, but housing is not in alignment with incomes. NYC used to have neighborhoods that were affordable to the middle class. It does not have them anymore.

It's a serious issue that needs to be addressed. The only reason why undesireable neighborhoods have had any resurgance at all, is because of this factoid.

And fwiw - Someone said that Park Slope was once dicey? When? Certainly not in the 70's, even if it was a whole lot cheaper then, it wasn't cheap then.

Now Williamsburg and Greenpoint. Well those neighborhoods always sucked. And they still suck. They just have better spoken people living there.