Too many "dreamers" in this forum (Peru, Russia: housing, rent)

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by 009

Your East Harlem analogy had nothing to do w/ the areas I mentioned, but I understand where you tried to go w/ it. I'm meant specific data to back up your theory, which I'm not doubting regarding most public housing, in those 3 specific areas and others who don't fit the typical public housing image of high crime, etc.

You are basically trying to portray every single public housing standing in NYC as crime ridden infestations, which is a lie. If you were to mention most instead of...



...then I would agree.

Even the few okay public housing developments are the crime burdens on their neighborhoods. Wherever you have concentrated poverty, you will have problems with broken families. This often leads to unguided kids, many of whom become involved in criminal activity.

But I see you get where i'm coming from.

[Jasper03]

If the crime reports are fudged then how is it that YOU know how much crime there is? If that is the case then there really is no way for anyone to know how much crime really occurs.

As far as you knowing people who have been mugged, raped, and burgurlarized that is your personal information. As far as your work as a police officer goes if you show up to the scence of a crime then it does get reported does it not? So are you telling me that as a police officer you are responding to crimes that don't get reported?


The last thing I have to say for the night is that I don't recommend that anyone live in a really bad area. I wouldn't live in Mott Haven or Jaimaca Queens if the rent was free99. All I am saying is that there are other places in the Bronx to live besides Riverdale and that tiny slice of Woodlawn before you get to Yonkers where you will not be riddled with bullets or raped if you set foot out of your house. The same goes for all of the outer bouroughs as well as Jersey.

Also I think that everyone should use common sense and street smarts wherever they go. I know someone who was absolutely shocked that they were mugged on 70th and York of all places. Sometimes people can be lulled into a false sense of security because they assume a neighborhood is "safe" I don't care where I live from now until the day I die I will always make sure to protect myself and my family and others should do the same.

Anyway, i'm going to bed because it's ridiculously late.

[Freak]

All I am saying is that there are other places in the Bronx to live besides Riverdale and that tiny slice of Woodlawn

I concur. Just as many neighborhoods in the Bronx are decent as there are bad. Country Club, Riverdale, Woodlawn, Throgs Neck, Pelham area, Morris Park, Van Cortlandt Village, even Norwood and Bedford Park to an extent.

[Hustla718]

Originally Posted by Jasper03

If the crime reports are fudged then how is it that YOU know how much crime there is? If that is the case then there really is no way for anyone to know how much crime really occurs.

As far as you knowing people who have been mugged, raped, and burgurlarized that is your personal information. As far as your work as a police officer goes if you show up to the scence of a crime then it does get reported does it not? So are you telling me that as a police officer you are responding to crimes that don't get reported?

The last thing I have to say for the night is that I don't recommend that anyone live in a really bad area. I wouldn't live in Mott Haven or Jaimaca Queens if the rent was free99. All I am saying is that there are other places in the Bronx to live besides Riverdale and that tiny slice of Woodlawn before you get to Yonkers where you will not be riddled with bullets or raped if you set foot out of your house. The same goes for all of the outer bouroughs as well as Jersey.

Also I think that everyone should use common sense and street smarts wherever they go. I know someone who was absolutely shocked that they were mugged on 70th and York of all places. Sometimes people can be lulled into a false sense of security because they assume a neighborhood is "safe" I don't care where I live from now until the day I die I will always make sure to protect myself and my family and others should do the same.

Anyway, i'm going to bed because it's ridiculously late.

Your making a simple concept complex to yourself.

Many crime reports are fudged to keep numbers down. However, who do you think does the fudging? It's pretty obvious what neighborhoods have problems with crime. ****, you can just look at the type of people walking around.

But your right, there is no way for people to get a dead on accurate figure as to how much crime occures in a single area. However common sense can give you a general idea. Your choices are a little, or a lot.

As for other good neighborhoods. I name them. I actually get tired of writting them all out. Riverdale, Woodlawn, City Island, Country Club, Pelham Bay, Morris Park, Throgs Neck, Van Courtland Village, ect ect ect. Of course, even in those areas there are problematic parts. Like Throgs Neck near the Throgs Neck PJ's.

Originally Posted by Freak

I concur. Just as many neighborhoods in the Bronx are decent as there are bad. Country Club, Riverdale, Woodlawn, Throgs Neck, Pelham area, Morris Park, Van Cortlandt Village, even Norwood and Bedford Park to an extent.

I agree with your list minus Norwood and Bedford Park. I have my reasons I have posted many times in another thread. They aren't complete ghettos but many pockets in those neighborhoods are full of problems. A good neighborhood is not 2 or 3 okay blocks, followed by a swath of drug infested tenement blocks. From my observations over time, those two areas are declining. I don't care how many new residents on here say otherwise. I have seen the area progress for many years and I see a constant decline. I feel eventually that swath of the Bronx will be a complete ghetto like the neighborhoods south of Bedford Park Blvd. All that affordable housing being built are no different from housing projects. you bring more low income people into an area and there will be more problems. notice those who have the means to leave are leaving (the remaining middle class), meanwhile the area is seeing an influx of low income people.

I don't want to get into that nonsense again in this thread, so take it as it is.

[JimmyLane]

Originally Posted by Hustla718

I understand this is a site that attracts people that are pro urban living, however some things I read are ridiculous. Too many people think every single neighborhood is "up and coming" or that the city is only going to get better.

I've seen this city through some of it's worst times, and some of it's best. Some may say I have a bias view becuase I am a cop. I just use my head. I am the realist on this board by far. Remember, we are going through some so so times right now. However from what I have seen over the years, this city is setting itsef up for another cycle of decline. Police shortage and rising crime. It's happening belive it or not. The stats lie and the shortage is real. An increase in income disparity. I see a city which has made it impossible for anyone above low income but not yet upper middle class to survive. Only the wealthy can truely live it up in this city. Housing selling for MUCH more then it's worth. From a housing standpoint, NYC is the biggest rip off in the USA.

All I will say is be careful about where you move. I'm surprised people on here have not called Rikers Island "up and coming."

Use your head. If safety is an issue, use your head. Any area around public housing (NYCHA, section 8, HUD, ect) or a high poverty/low income area will have crime above the national average. Usually lot of single mothers, unguided kids. Mostly generational poverty with a history of alcoholism, drug abuse, incarceration, ect. These are the most likely canidates to become criminals. When you have a lot of possible criminals, you have a lot of crime.

Just use your head. If safety is a big concern, don't move to Harlem for example. **** the NY Times, anyone with half a brain knows a lot of crimes are commited in the area thanks to the above mentioned factors.

Just remember, all cities will always have good and bad areas. Not every inch of NYC is up and coming like the Times might lead you to belive. I get pissed reading forumers recomending young females to live in ****holes.

Oh and just becuase you lived walking past a housing project on the LES, doesn't mean the area is crime free. The "I did it and never had a problem/i'm fine" post are by far the stupidest post in this forum.

Another problem is people who live in certain areas, then boost them becuase they live there. Enough with the bull****.

cool post, hustla. i see what you're saying about NYC on the decline. at the same time, midtown and the village are abuzz with more touristy places than ever before. i was in manhattan last month with a couple of friends and we decided to grab some pizza and take a stroll thru Central Park. it was around 2ish and we wanted to see whether Tavern on the Green was still open. turns out a patrol car pulls up and the officer inside used his handy external speaker to direct us to leave the park. "The Park IS closed." and he tossed a homeless guy out who was eating a half roll seated on a bench. so much for the "City that never sleeps," huh?

[arel]

Sobering posts. Thanks, Hustla, for your clear-eyed perceptiveness and honesty. I always value what you bring to the table.

[Concept]

its because most people do not see crime happening. it lulls u into a sense that everything is peachy. something could be happening around the corner or a couple blocks away, and u wouldnt have a clue what just happened.

it isnt til u or someone u know gets jacked, that it becomes etched in ur mind.

however, there has to be a balance between the two...be aware that it exists and the potential it could happen to anyone...and on the flip side u cant go living life all paranoid n shyt either.

[Elvira Black]

But Hustla, what about those people who, for whatever reason (work, family, love of NY) just don't want to be forced out? The areas in the Bronx you mentioned may be "nicer," but they are also more pricey and unaffordable for many New Yorkers, esp those just starting out.

You've mentioned your intention to move out of NYC. Some of us can't or won't. You see for yourself the truly naeve out of towners posting here on a daily basis who assume they can live in Manhattan or "better" parts of Brooklyn on low starting salaries. So where do they move to if they can't even afford the better areas you list?

One of the reasons you claim areas are on the decline is because of an exodus of the middle class. This happened in Manhattan too back in the day. If some of us are "stupid" enough to move to affordable areas, and are reasonably street smart, don't hang out at night, etc. we are less likely to be victimized. Not 100 percent, but enough to feel that it is worth the risk rather than be forced/priced out of the metro area completely. Why should we be, if we choose to stay? Many of us love this city, and simply don't want to leave!

Poverty is nothing new in NYC. A century ago, The Lower East Side and other areas were "taken over" by new immigrants, very poor immigrants. Their "ghetto" was an overpopulated, disease ridden mess. Many established residents considered them a threat. Thus every new immigrant group has had to start out struggling and dealing with poverty and prejudice, in the hopes that their children might be able to move beyond it.

One of my b/f's neighbors, who is Puerto Rican, was talking on the elevator to him one day. My b/f said, this is a nice building. She said--it was, until the Dominicans moved in. Others who lived there decades ago concur--and they are not white. You get what I'm saying here?

I know that in the ghetto it is much harder for people to have hope or opportunity, but it can and does happen for some. Just as some of us have taken the plunge to live in poor neighborhoods amongst the poor so we can have a roof over our head in NYC. To your mind, such people are either "dreamers" or "yuppies."

What are we to advise posters who are the true "dreamers" with their heads in the clouds---young people who want to experience New York for themselves but just don't have the means to live in the "better" areas? What about the areas that have become "better?" How did that happen?

To your mind, these are "gentrified" and yes, many are. But many of these areas were once "ghetto" as well. I still remember a time when Park Slope was considered sketchy. Look at it now. Ditto for Williamsburg, the Upper West Side, the East Village, and countless other areas of the city. The residents who first moved in when it was less than "desirable" were not all rich yuppies. In fact the first "pioneers" were often priced out just like the orig residents were. Back then, there were "better" blocks right next to "terrible" ones in Manhattan too.

But in the Bronx, the fact that the poor may be here to stay means that here we coexist with them, and try to rise above seeing them all as a terrible threat.

And where are the poor to live in NYC? If they can't afford the rents and can only live in public or Section 8 housing, what are they supposed to do? Fall off the face of the planet?

Many people view Section 8 as a terrible stigma, but for many in this city such social programs are the only way they can hope to survive here. Not all the youth in the Fordham area are thugs--in my observation, far from it. Many working poor here who are trying to get ahead. Many Spanish speaking or bilingual people with solid family ties, including a respectable number of two parent families, grandparents, etc. And they're much more polite and "decent" than many of the rude f*ckers in Manhattan with a sense of entitlement.

The coop I now live in is predominantly black. These are folks who managed to get a piece of the pie. I see some a few homeless hanging out around the Aqueduct here, but within this complex and even without I don't feel threatened. (Remember when Manhattan was a homeless haven?) There's a large park nearby which is being renovated and is teeming with families. This is the only green space they have, and it is used primarily to give local kids somewhere to play. I see it daily: families picnicking, giving birthday parties, etc. etc. No loud music, etc. Sure, I might not wander in there after dark, but neither do the majority of the local residents. It's a place for children to play and families to gather.

The churches here are also a positive place for families. Those who can somehow manage send their kids to parochial schools.

I used to go with my boyfriend to AA meetings in a local church on Sunday afternoons. Most afternoons, the church itself was a gathering for Hispanic families. Music, food, celebrations, alternatives to the streets. The place was always packed with children and parents. No gangstas there.

In my b/f's building, he is constantly getting knocks on the door from religious people trying to convert folks. Now granted, this is annoying, but far better to say "no thank you" than to deal with drug dealers invading the building. Churchgoing people tend to instill positive values in their children, and I see the positve effects all around me.

Remember Tompkins Square Park back in the day with homeless camping out, or most of the other parks in this city? Havens for drug dealers, period. No sensible person would dare wander in there, day or night. Now they are safe, and being used for their intended purpose--a free space in the city for people and their families to enjoy--rich or poor.

It used to be, when I was in my twenties fresh out of college, that you could still afford to live in an Upper East Side walkup. I lived in a one bedroom for 12 years. When I checked out the hood about 8 years ago, a hellhole of a studio in a run down building was going for almost triple the price. What's a twenty-something fresh out of college supposed to do nowadays?

My b/f, who came here in the sixties, moved to the Lower East Side. Why? Was is because he was a dreamer? Well yes, and also because he couldn't afford better at the time. He was mugged at knifepoint several times by local addicts, but he refused to budge from his newfound home. He's lived all over the city, from the Upper East Side to flophouses and homeless shelters. He'd blow into Manhattan and be able to get a cheap room within an hour. Not the ideal situation, but after spending some time "back home," he'd always return to the city, because he loved it. So did others back when Manhattan was full of ghettos.

Remember when the whole city was a dangerous mess? Remember Bernie Goetz? The riots? The Central Park wildings? The subways? 14th Street was a dangerous hellhole. Ditto for many areas that are completely out of reach for most people now. Look at the tourists flocking in now. In the 70s and 80s, would you ever have predicted the transformation Manhattan and Brooklyn have gone through over the past several decades?

I don't see the purpose in discouraging people from living in a poor hood. Many did so when Manhattan was a dangerous mess. At least in the Bronx, there is a very good chance that the area will not be transformed into yuppie land. The poor have a right to live here too, and to try and better their situation or their children's if they can. You rose above it--don't you think others can too?

Hustla, I respect your viewpoint, but you seem to offer no solutions except to advise those who can afford it to move to what to many are still unaffordable areas. I choose to have more optimism, more hope in the future of this city. So far, so good.

[Elvira Black]

One other thing...the welfare system has been overhauled. It is harder for people who just don't want to work to get unlimited free money. The welfare system here used to actively enable generational poverty, because the government actually made it easier to live on unconditional handouts, and rewarded people who had kid after kid. Now that the whole city is more expensive, I think there has been considerable change. Yes, some people still deal drugs, join gangs, have kids out of wedlock etc. But it has improved to some extent.

For example, every merchant in this area is a hardworking immigrant/minority. No white storeowners that I've seen at all. Isn't that a good thing? These people work incredibly hard and deal with street people all the time. Still, they survive. Should they all abandon the Bronx too and leave it to rot? Should they give up on owning their own businesses and serving the community because the work is too grueling? Are they hopeless "dreamers" too?

[Miss NY]

However you will never EVER see me recommend an area like Harlem.

Not all of Harlem is bad my Aunt lives between Amsterdam & Convent and that neiborhooods ok