Ever notice that New York City's Firefighters are mostly Irish? (Cuba: employment, neighborhood)

[lil chef]

Originally Posted by straightshooter

all the irish FDNY are legal. they applied, took the written and physical test, and waited for their number to be called. i think that the reason people get so heated about this issue is that they don't understand how the system works. once you take those tests, you get a score. the score is logged onto a database. every cycle, the city tells the FDNY how many new positions are available. the FDNY pulls up the list, starts at the top (highest score), and draws a line at the requested number. eg., if the city needs 30 new fireman this cycle, the top 30 are called. if any candidate called rejects the offer, it is extended to the next subsequent candidate. therefore, (using the hypo. above) if 3 candidates of the 30 no longer wanted to become firemen, then numbers 31, 32, and 33 would be offered the position. the FDNY takes extraoridinary steps to ensure that their basis for offering positions is point-based. no other factors are considered. other than pro. sports, it is the most merit-based system in existence.

i cannot understand the current argument against it. i did feel that points given for college work was questionable and that imposing a degree requirement was ridiculous. what does a fireman need to know about french literature to be a good fireman? are we looking for a scholar or a fireman here? however, the arbitrary standard of education exists for MOST jobs, and it is equally ridiculous for many of them, as well. however, the FDNY's removal of the education requirement negates that argument.

the FDNY written test is far from intellectually taxing. i know many fireman who have GED's, earned years after failing out of high school. i would definitely question the potential and competency of anyone who could not score highly on that test. that blacks fail the test in droves does not indict the test. it is a sad testiment to the basic intellectual prowess of those who scored poorly.

awarding race-based points is immoral and illegal. the Supreme Court has ruled against this practice. moreover, the Court has ruled that basic competency tests are legal, even if they disproportionately affect a certain group. having a competent fire rescue force is infinitely more important than having an incompetent but racially representative force.

at the end of the day, for whatever reason, blacks do not seem to be interested in becoming firemen. so be it. i don't want firemen that i have to beg and persuade to become firemen. i want firemen who want to become firemen. if a black guy truly wants to become a fireman, performs well on the racially-neutral test, and is denied a position b/c he is black, we have a problem. but, no one is accusing the FDNY of the above practice. instead, the FDNY is accused of not offering enough incentives to blacks in an effort to convince them to become firemen, having a test that is 'too difficult' (talk about INSULTING) for blacks to pass, and an aggregate of undefined, smoke-in-mirrors, misty causes that result in low black representation.

this current lawsuit is frivolous and designed to harrass. i look forward to the federal judge urniating all over those who brought it. in a final word to anyone who wants to become a fireman....study for the test, stay motivated, stay positive, do what you can to earn extra points (take that basket-weaving class at the local community college; it's impossible to fail if your IQ is > 82, and you'll get points), and take the test.

WELL said ,I agree 100%.

[nyusol2011]

Why do u think there are so many Irish and Italian firefighters and police officers? It's because of discrimination. Back in the day the Irish and Italians were heavily discriminated against, particularly in employment and only certain blue collar jobs were open to them, such as fdny and nypd. Did you think they were just naturally inclined to put out fires and catch bad guys? Why do you think that there are so few Irish and Italians in professional careers--e.g. lawyers, doctors, professors? Do you think they are inherently incapable of excelling in school? Do you think they are genetically predisposed to do blue collar work? They were just doing the only jobs made available to them and it became part of their culture--and it persists today.

But here is where it gets interesting...Blacks and latinos had it even worse than these Irish and Italians because they couldn't even get into those blue collar jobs that the Irish and Italians could get into. These Irish and Italians, in turn discriminated against blacks, latinos, and everyone else, and locked them out of the construction industry, unions, nypd, fdny, etc. etc. These jobs were what allowed Irish and Italians to make it into the middle class while blacks and latinos were left washing dishes, shining shoes, and committing crimes. If you look at this history, then look at the Irish, Italian, Black, and Latino populations today, it all makes sense.

To be sure, the playing field is level now and there is no discrimination in the hiring process. But just as the tendencies of Irish and Italians to do blue collar work and stay in the middle class can be explained by history and certainly has nothing to do with their genes, so do the problems of latinos and blacks today have much to do with a long history of discrimination that only started to let up a mere 35-40 years ago.

[NooYowkur81]

I do feel there is a bit of a backlash amongst some in the Irish/Italian communities towards "minorities," as the NYPD has increasing Black, Asian, and Latino officers. There is some bittereness there. I hate to open up that can of worms, but its the 800lb gorilla in the room. It's there.

[Guywithacause]

I am somewhat torn about this. On one hand I find it very hard to believe that somehow people of color, who represent the majority in this city, represent ..ummm 5% of the FDNY because the test is too hard? Let's be reasonable. The test and physical exam are part of the selection, but clearly the Irish are doing whatever they can to maintain the FDNY the way it has always been. I don't see it as healthy for any group to dominate so entirely and be such a stark contract from the city that is draws employees from. Clearly something smells fishy.

That being said...the same logic should then apply to other city agencies, however it does not. When you walk into the DMV you expect to see certain groups and don't wonder "where are all the Irish men or Jewish moms." I know that the police dept had a very difficult time opening up to people of color....and at the end of the day I see the FDNY getting a free pass on this one...for better or worse.

I am torn.

[Ogden Assassin]

Originally Posted by Dingler

In a City that is now mostly immigrants, I get a kick out of the Firefighters in New York City. It seems the majority of them are Irish or Italian, and talk like old fashioned New Yorker's. It seems like few ethnic minorities can get a job as a New York City Fireman. What happened to Diversity or Affirmative Action??

Total bull shale my friend. The culture of the department is Catholic if anything as evidenced in the fact that an overwhelming number of the department's black firemen are not African American.

[Ogden Assassin]

Originally Posted by nyusol2011

To be sure, the playing field is level now and there is no discrimination in the hiring process. But just as the tendencies of Irish and Italians to do blue collar work and stay in the middle class can be explained by history and certainly has nothing to do with their genes, so do the problems of latinos and blacks today have much to do with a long history of discrimination that only started to let up a mere 35-40 years ago.

As the son of a Puerto Rican I find it dishonest and disingenuous for you to suggest that there's a long history of discrimination against what you refer to as "Latinos". Outside of Puerto Ricans, the Cubans of Florida and Chicanos of the southwest and Chicago there was no "Latino" to be discriminated against prior to thirty-five years ago.

[mead]

Originally Posted by Ogden Assassin

Total bull shale my friend. The culture of the department is Catholic if anything as evidenced in the fact that an overwhelming number of the department's black firemen are not African American.

I would say that applies to both NYFD and NYPD. The unifying factor with most cops and firefighters in this area is that overwhelmingly they tend to be Catholic.

[mead]

Originally Posted by nyusol2011

Why do u think there are so many Irish and Italian firefighters and police officers? It's because of discrimination. Back in the day the Irish and Italians were heavily discriminated against, particularly in employment and only certain blue collar jobs were open to them, such as fdny and nypd. Did you think they were just naturally inclined to put out fires and catch bad guys? Why do you think that there are so few Irish and Italians in professional careers--e.g. lawyers, doctors, professors? Do you think they are inherently incapable of excelling in school? Do you think they are genetically predisposed to do blue collar work? They were just doing the only jobs made available to them and it became part of their culture--and it persists today.
....

I don't know about Doctors, but do you honestly think there is a shortage of Irish and Italian lawyers? Certainly WASPs and Jews dominate the profession, but Irish and Italians make up a good percentage of lawyers in the NYC area.

[BronxPride]

If its all about being Catholic then hispanics should make up at least a third of the force. Anyway its still discrimination based on religion and its wrong!.

A few years back I went on an interview and was asked what was my Christian denomination. The interviewer asked the normal questions but then we got comfortable and she told me how the owner was some denomination and she was another. Then she asked me what I was. I didn't show enthusiasm and really couldn't answer cause I really didn't go to church. lol I didn't get the job and I couldn't help thinking that it was because I was not a church goer. Crazy stuff.

Also, just curious, are established Irish American firemen hooking up new Irish immigrants with FDNY jobs?

Originally Posted by mead

I would say that applies to both NYFD and NYPD. The unifying factor with most cops and firefighters in this area is that overwhelmingly they tend to be Catholic.

[baylovers]

Also, just curious, are established Irish American firemen hooking up new Irish immigrants with FDNY jobs?

No, this entire thread is preposterous. There are civil service tests for just about every agency in NYC and there are civil service tests for promotions within those agencies. These jobs are open to anyone who meets the required qualifications.... getting hired has nothing to do with your ancestry/religion.

Perhaps, if people of a certain ethnicity/religion are uncomfortable being part of an agency where the majority of the personnel are a particular race they may not desire to take the test/job. For instance, if a white person would consider working for the Department of Transportation but is uncomfortable working in a job that is a majority black/Hispanic then that person may opt against taking that test. Are they being discriminated against? No.... Are the black/Hispanic employees of the DOT "hooking up" other people of their race/nationality? No

The Fire Department has been accepting women to the department for almost three decades now. There is still only a small contingent of female firefighters but it is slowly groing. Why? My guess is because most women do not want to be exposed to the all male rank & file. It will probably change over the years just like it is changing with minority recruitment.

Since 9/11 there has been a huge turnover of personnel in the FDNY and the ranks are becoming more diverse. That agency will be as diverse as the NYPD in a few years.