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What I miss about NY is the neighborhood feeling, where you can sit on your stoop and just hang out. And your kids can play in the street, supervised by "a village". Where you knew your neighbors and you helped each other.
Now fugghet about trying to get to know your neighbor, even if you are in the same building.
Das: I do not believe ALL of anything is true, as I am a reasonable person and do not deal in extremes. Naturally, not ALL new immigrants to this city are poor, especially if they are Latino. Of course I agree. I do not doubt either that their are immigrants that come to this city with skills and are ready to hit the ground running, agreed as well. However, your example of Mexicans working at a construction site to support your argument is very poor, as they may be great at putting up drywall, but that nonetheless does not mean they are not poor and traveling to NYC for work or a better life.
Furthermore, it suports the fact that they are not educated, but instead resorting to manual labor to make ends meet, further supporting the fact that these people are poor. If you are trying to convince me that these recent arrivals from Mexico are not poor, but in fact educated and middle class, then we will have to agree to disagree as the facts do not support you. That is not to say that they are bad, or a drain on society, far from it, however they are poor and they are still coming to the city in droves, and that means the city is still a place that welcomes immigrants en masse, and subsequently it is still a place they can afford to live.
In addition, I do not doubt there are great honor students in CUNY doing quite well, but let's talk about percentages, as they are not representative of the immigrants coming en masse to the city. The same can be said of Puerto Ricans in this city: Some are doing great, honor students at CUNY, Professor's, elected officials, heck the founder of Banco Popular is PR, but the percentages are small, and these people are not representative of the PR experience, lack of education, and generational poverty that overwhelms the culture here.
Regarding your reference to rents, my Father also remembers when the train was a nickel, and you can go to the movies for a quarter. That's all wonderful, but THINGS CHANGE. I understand that things have gotten expensive, but it is simply supply and demand. I make no apologies that the city has become attractive to not only Americans, but also to the world. That is a function of how great it is to live in the city, thus the demand nationally and globally has increased while the supply has remained relatively limited. That is the society we live in, it is open to all, anyone can buy, sell, become rich, poor, educated, gay, or whatever. Nobody is guaranteed housing for $150,000 in midtown, and for that matter, in Bed-Stuy, because it is based on supply and demand. Prices go up, things change, and life moves on. It is a struggle to survive, no doubt, but that has always been the case. Welcome to the real world!
As for Harlem, the point I was making is that communities should not prevent change from occurring, or maintaining one type of person as a resident. The concept of segregation, when it is convenient for people of color, is offensive, as it is something that people of color have fought and died to overturn and change for years. Keeping Harlem black, or keeping Brooklyn Heights white is wrong for both communities...it is not what makes this city great and that sort of segregation is a root problem of much of the city.
Unfortunately in this city, we live by supply and demand. If all I can afford is to live in Mott Haven, why is that wrong or unfair? You may consider it a crime ridden area, or my apt crappy, but that is the price you pay to live in this city. We are free to move anywhere else in the country, as we do not have a right to live where we want at the price we set, as I stated earlier. As hard working professionals, unskilled manual laboreres, working class, or the wealthy elite, we should all live where we can afford to. Period. That's life.
Elvira...I agree with your comment. Now that it is desireable to live in this city, the middle class that abandoned the city for the 'burbs now wants to stake their claim and complains that there is no room for them. There is still plenty of room in the suburbs. Enjoy.
Vita: There is still plenty of room for you here, except now you are not able to live in the neighborhood of your choosing. Sorry! If it is important for you to remain in this city, you may have to move to Mott Haven, Bed-Stuy, or Flatbush. You are not entitled to live in the Village or the Upper West side just because you want to. If you cannot afford to, and it is worth it to you to remain in this city, then you must live where you can afford. Crazy huh?
Regarding the "hardly a poor immigrant population here", you are delusional. The city continues to attract a large poor population from Latin America. If you put down the NY Times articles and actually read a newspaper, you would know that the gazzilliones of yuppies buying $10million condos and pushing out everyone else is an illusion. Don't believe the hype...do some research.
The rich and poor still live side by side, and that is not changing as the gargantuan number of housing projects surround this city and are in just about all neighborhoods. Those projects aren't going anywhere, and neither are the massive subsidies that move the poor out of the housing projects and homeless shelters, and into private housing. Those subsidies will ensure they live next door to the rich as well. Don't worry...the poor will continue to live by the rich and off the rich.
The price appreciation you have seen as of late is a product of supply and demand. Yes a $50,000 condo can easily go to $3 million if everyone wants it. Is it worth it? Yes, to those who want to pay it. Is this wrong? In our society it is not, however should you feel it is wrong, Cuba awaits! Better yet, instead of complaining about housing prices, use your brain or skills, create you own real estate company (for example), make millions, buy them all back and give them away for $50,000 again. Where else but America can you do that?!!!
Yes we do have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. However, I do not recall it saying life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness in NYC on my terms. Clearly you are not able to pursue your happiness in NYC, and that's okay, because this country is HUGE, and there is alot of life, liberty and happiness outside of the city (at least that's what I hear!) Enjoy!
This thread is titled "Anyone miss the Old NYC". You gave reasons for missing the old NYC, I gave reasons for not missing it. I believe we are still spot on topic.
Thanks Elvira..I tired to keep it short and oh so sweet. I suspect though that some people will never understand, or choose not to accept, the theory of supply and demand, nor that they are not entitled to live where they want, at the price they deem fair.
Today many can only afford a 1 bedroom condo in Bushwick, instead of a 2 bedroom, top floor unit in Chelsea (10 years ago). That's life! Take action, buy, invest, and do what you can so that tomorrow, you won't be complaining that you cannot afford a 1 bedroom condo in Bushwick, but instead only a studio basement apt in Jamaica Queens!
People from Mexico, NY, or any where else that have the skills to work as a skilled laborer on a construction site in NY will not be poor for long, IF they came here poor. I am not making a generalization here. I work in a field where I speak with construction contractors on a daily basis. The people they hire may have language barriers but they were educated in their countries, they are skilled plumbers, brick masons, carpenters and whatever other skilled laborers that are necessary to put up a building. These people are able to legally live and work here. These contractors cannot risk hiring otherwise.
Being a manual laborer should not be equated with being uneducated. Anyone that thinks this should research the educational requirements needed to perform skilled labor jobs.
The last time I studied US geography Puerto Rico was a part of the US. Puerto Ricans are not immigrants to this country. You previously mentioned new immigrants to NYC, so that is what I was referring to. Go to an Honors Convocation ceremony in May at any CUNY you will see who is on top. Don't take my word for it. These students that major in the math and science fields are usually offered placement in PH.D programs in other parts of the US and that is where they end up going and they see for themselves that they can live much better than they can in NYC.
Yes, some immigrants are poor, some are uneducated and unskilled as are some Americans. Will you see these working on a construction site? or graduating with honors from college in a few years after they arrive?
This city has traditionally welcomed people from all over the world regardless of their educational level or their economic level. What is written on the Statue of Liberty? Is the city still living up to this? That is what I miss about the city.
I don't remember when the subway was a nickel, I wasn't born yet. I was referring to the percentage of your income needed to rent an apt or how much money you would actually need to make in order to rent or buy property without subsidy. "Welcome to the real world" That is so cute! and so silly. I have been living in it for quite some time. I am just like you on some things. I live here, work hard and contribute to making this city a better place. I am just stating facts that I can back up.
I can pay my rent from my salary only because I have been living in the same apt for quite some time. However I am stuck if I remain in this city. No matter how much I save, I cannot afford to buy anything in this city even in the worse neighborhood. I could not afford to move into my own building if I moved in there this year. Has my neighborhood changed that much? Yes there is luxury housing available and more going up, but the PJ's are still there, the section 8's are still there, so are the homeless and the other "undesirables" that take over the streets when it sun goes down.
Really research the history of Harlem. It was only really truly segragated from the 1960's. All types of people lived in Harlem. They may have been segregated by certain blocks. This is still evident that many different people lived there. Look at how many churches are located in old buildings that were synagogues. These were built after 1920. Check out city college library and see the displays of pictures. You students of all races throughout the years. Black and Latino are and never were few and far between as some would like you to believe.
You live in the Bronx, take a ride up to Lehman college and go to the book store and check out a book "The Beautiful Bronx". It is a coffee table picture book with pictures that show how beautiful the Bronx was and this was all of the Bronx including Mott Haven. All races of people lived there and most were working class. The Bronx was very reasonably priced place to buy a house with a small yard and raise a family.
What I miss about the old NYC was that you knew your neighbors, children could play outside without worrying about drivebys, and you stood outside and talked to your neighbors. You could actually buy a house in a nice neighborhood if you were a construction worker, teacher, cop, transit worker, or college professor or any other hard working NYer.
I am a true NYer so I don't think Manhattan is NYC. So when I am referring to buying or renting I am not necessarily referring to Manhattan.
I am not a person that would turn tail and run at the slightest challenge. I am a life long NYer and I too have strong family ties and close friends that live all 5 boros of this city. So it would be very hard to leave. It is nothing wrong with living in Mott Haven, Mott Haven and Harlem have a lot of good things. I am not insulting your apt, I sincerely apologize if I came off that way. Yes it is supply and demand and you live where you can afford to live however you should be able to live decently in that place. Why do you have to be able to pay a million dollars over a short period of time to be able to live well here? That is what my fight has been about. As long as I am here I will continue to speak out about it. You cannot just sit back and accept it, this city will not get better for the average person if the average person just sits back and says "That's Life".
Das I will not address all your points as I already have. However, I will address the crux of your argument: "Yes it is supply and demand and you live where you can afford to live however you should be able to live decently in that place. Why do you have to be able to pay a million dollars over a short period of time to be able to live well here? That is what my fight has been about. As long as I am here I will continue to speak out about it. You cannot just sit back and accept it, this city will not get better for the average person if the average person just sits back and says "That's Life"." (end quote)
I completely agree, as does any rational person, that it is unfortunate that the cost of living has increased dramatically as of late in many parts of the country, not just NYC (but especially so in this city). Furthermore, it is also unfortunate that oftentimes you pay alot to live in not so nice apartments, or not so nice areas, in this city. However, all of these issues are nothing new to this city!
If you live, or move into this city, it is not because it is affordable, cheap, you want space or a large home, enjoy privacy, quiet, or because you only derive pleasure by being surrounded by people whom are just like you. As rational people, I believe we can all agree with that statement.
People live here, or move here, for the chance at a better/higher paying job, to meet or interact with people they may never meet elsewhere (from billionaires to the homeless), to expand their skill set or gain new skills, or just because they believe they can be rich or "if they can make it here they can make it anywhere."
As a result, people for generations have moved and lived here, and tolerated all that is wrong with this city, including the horrendously bad housing stock, high cost of everything, racism, crime, waves of "gentrification" and poverty, slums, etc. Why? Because it is worth it to them to live in this city. People are continuing to move into this city from across the globe and finding work and places to live, however many must now consider places that were formerly "off limits" like Bed-Stuy and Bushwick. Why is this a problem?
It is a normal cycle in NYC, and apparently it is worth it to ever-increasing people to come to NYC, because the immigrants (rich and poor), are still coming and transforming neighborhoods, whether it be the yuppies you detest, or the Mexican construction workers. Welcome to NY!
Many cannot or choose not to adapt to the changes that are always occuring in the city, which is why many have, and continue to, flee to the suburbs and the rest of the country. I am not asking anyone to "sit back and accept" anything...I encourage the opposite. I encourage people to remain in their communities and improve them, instead of complaining and running the first chance they get, as you have indicated you are doing.
I cannot apologize or feel sorry for you because the lifestyle that you can now afford in this city is a 1 bedroom condo in Bushwick. Many people have been doing it when it was a heck of alot worse than it is now, however I don't recall many of those recently "priced out" of "fabulous" neighborhoods complaining about the plight of those in Bushwick when it was burnt down and destroyed. They left the communities, headed for the suburbs, and now are returning and complaining that there is no room for them.
The city will change, it always has, and those that cannot adapt or choose not to, move on to somewhere else, which makes room for a new group, wealthier, or poorer, than the former group. If you cannot agree with these statements about NYC, then it is probably not the place for you.
DAS says:
"Your argument about living in Mott Haven because that is where you can afford to live and not in Chelsea is bull. I didn't see any post on this thread where anyone wrote about living in an area that has been unaffordable for the average NYer for some time. BTW I remember when Chelsea was affordable and you could work a regular job and live there and that was in the 1980's.
Why should you have to live in a crime ridden area, in a piece of crap apt when you are hard working professional, and don't want or qualify for any subsidy?"
People who don't learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Chelsea and other areas were once affordable because they were once considered to be piece of crap areas too.
Why should you have to live in a crime ridden area, etc? By the same token, why should Britney Spears be a millionaire if I'm not? I gather from your posts that you are too young to know firsthand how "crappy" the city really was decades ago. Now that it isn't, everyone feels entitled to live in a "non-crappy" area right off the bat.
Not too long ago, the Lower East Side, Tribeca, Soho, the East Village, the Upper West Side, Williamsburg, Chelsea, Park Slope, etc etc were "crappy," unsafe areas. The few remaining crappy areas of NYC won't be crappy for long.
It's called paying dues...Saving is important; living within your means is important, just like in the old days. If you can afford a down payment for a coop in a "crappy" area, you can probably be on the winning side down the line. But unless you're rich, instant gratification is not an option for most people. There's always some compromise.
BTW, I lived on the "crappy" Lower East Side in a one bedroom coop for a long time. And guess what? That same coop where my ex-b/f and I paid 8 grand to buy in about 15 years ago sold for 450K this year after the board voted to go to market rate. But yeah, that area used to be considered crappy, and still is considered crappy by some people. There are lots of housing projects nearby, but there are also very high priced condos and hotels sprouting up in the area as well. Rents have skyrocketed, of course.
Because we broke up and had to split the proceeds (and paid an incredible 17 1/2 percent flip tax, broker's fees, etc, taking 25 percent of our profit away), there was no way I could afford Manhattan anymore. I didn't want to have a mortage, so I bought a coop in an area I could afford (the Bronx), with a lower cost of living to boot.
Back in the 80s, I could afford to live on the Upper East Side in a nice area/crappy apt. I can't now...so be it. That's life in NYC.
Do I miss Manhattan? Sure, but I don't feel bitter about it. I worked in non-profit, not on Wall Street, so I don't get to have a Wall Street lifestyle. C'est la vie...
Guywithacause and Elvira: I'm a NYer, my parents came here and did quite well. I and other regular NYers now will have a hard time achieving what they did and they stayed in NY within the 5 boros and they were not rich. They did work hard and they did compromise as I am doing now. The difference between then and now is that NY was affordable. You could actually live within your means and live decently. They didn't expect to live on Park Ave. You could have a nice clean decent apartment, save up to buy a house, and not worry about crime the way you do now.
People do come here for all the reasons you named and more.
I never said I detest yuppies.
My point was that Harlem, Bedstuy and some others were nice places then became not so nice places on a whole with pockets of nice sections and were until recent history, affordable, then became places that people that were and are being pushed out of. Harlem is not affordable for the average person not living in subsidized housing anymore. Bedstuy is rapidly becoming like that. Chelsea never was a South Bronx or Harlem it was always decent maybe more edgy but decent and it was affordable.
Did you really read my post? Read my last paragraph. I am still standing and fighting. I agree with you on your previous post about people staying and bettering the community. That was exactly my point about Chelsea. People didn't fight. They just moved somewhere else. I don't know how many decades back you are talking about. But I remember in the 1980's when people were paid (I knew some personally) to move from the upper westside and the buildings were converted to luxury coops. What is different about then and now? Then you could move a few blocks up to Harlem, even then you could move to one of the nice pockets of Harlem or to an outer boro for even less.
Ok so what's wrong with moving to Bushwick? If you can afford it on one job now its fine. I'll repeat I'm a NYer so I don't think that the other 4 boros are not part of NYC. There are people that have always preferred the other boros and didn't ever want to step foot in Manhattan unless they had to work there. Apparently both of you are so young that you accept "crappy".
I am not bitter. I am just facing reality. It is nothing wrong with staying here and living in crappy apts or coops just to live in this city if you think this city is all that. Especially if you are single and don't have any children. How many people want to live in the crappy apt with children, paying high rents or mortgages and still be able to afford parochial or private school?
Not many people will be able to even save for a coop in a crappy area they are already priced out. I am not trying to stop your dreams. I sincerely hope that your dreams come true. I hope you both consider consulting with a small business consulting firm where people from all types of businesses volunteer to give you info. There are lots of people from real estate. It is more to it than working hard, saving, buying and selling at the right time. More have failed than made it in this city. You can avoid the pitfalls by consulting with them.
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