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Old 10-29-2011, 06:58 PM
 
83 posts, read 98,720 times
Reputation: 44

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Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenDullesMJ12 View Post
And there are thousands of Asian immigrants in America who are living in poverty and basically working as slaves, marginalized by other minorities in ghetto neighborhoods, and have no social representation. Yet how come they are able to allow their kinfolk to succeed without creating excuses?

If racial discrimination is a problem it should be dealt with in a specific manner. Such as harassment in the workplace because of race or not giving them promotions even when they do exceptional work. "Racism and prejudice" cannot be used as a blanket answer for the failure of others.

Not including wealth and privilege, the only other advantage that Asians that are able to succeed have is higher intelligence and less ignorant aggression.
Yes I guess Asians were slaves in America from 1609 to 1863 and then lived under Jim Crow laws until 1964 and then suffered school segregation and job discrimination and were secluded in the worst and most dangerous areas of America. Ok, I gotcha.

 
Old 10-29-2011, 07:08 PM
 
Location: New York City
395 posts, read 1,209,995 times
Reputation: 375
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticvisa View Post
So basically nobody thinks that Black and Latino students have been harmed in any way through racism or prejudice or poverty - everyone just thinks that Asian students "work harder" or get "pushed harder" by their parents?

Nobody has ever heard of the "culture of poverty" in America?

There is no disadvantage to being Black or Latino in America? No advantage to being White or Asian?
Celticvisa, if you posed this question as an initial thread, I would agree with that unfortunately prejudice is still happening in the education system.

But since the OPs initial question was regarding the standardized test used to place students into schools, I don't believe any race has any advantage over another. It all comes down to how seriously the household a student comes from takes education.
 
Old 10-29-2011, 09:21 PM
 
5,007 posts, read 4,886,214 times
Reputation: 4828
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticvisa View Post
Yes I guess Asians were slaves in America from 1609 to 1863 and then lived under Jim Crow laws until 1964 and then suffered school segregation and job discrimination and were secluded in the worst and most dangerous areas of America. Ok, I gotcha.
Regarding "the worst and most dangerous areas of America", per my own short experience and observation in the US, the majority of those places tend to be mostly AA neighborhoods. This might be labeled as a "racist" observation itself if you wish, but imo it does speak to the root of the problem in a good part.

Also, it is foreseeable that the younger generations of AA and hispanic parents-to-be will no longer use the excuse to blame the failure of their children at school to the historical racial problems, as they grow up under the no-child-left-behind policy which should discourage them from using it any more.

The bottom line is, in any competitive world, there will always be classes of high-, medium-, and low-achievers. Within the Asian continent, there are lots of underperforming students who face challenges in their future livings, so you know that not all Asians can do well at school. The Asian population in the US largely represents those who are self-motivated and willing to work hard to achieve a better living, and that is probably why they came to this "land of opportunities". So it is fair to say that they start at a high level in terms of motivation, either spontaneous or externally given, which is missing in many of their peer "native Americans" students.

There are IQ inequalities, but that can exist within a race just as much as between races. On the other hand, that is often not the decisive factor in terms of success. There are "smart" kids grow up to be average joes, and a "less-smart" kids achieve more in life through persistence and hard work.

I believe that the parents of failing students should take a critical look at themselves before they jump on blaming the big system. Believe me, the US government spends a lot more $$ per capital on educating the young generation of children than most of the rest of the world. The outcome of this input, however, does not prove that more $$$ (or resources) equal better performances. It is time for Americans to evaluate the human factor as root of the problem instead of demanding for even more educational resources.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 07:40 AM
 
83 posts, read 98,720 times
Reputation: 44
Default it was sarcasm

Quote:
Originally Posted by leoliu View Post
Regarding "the worst and most dangerous areas of America", per my own short experience and observation in the US, the majority of those places tend to be mostly AA neighborhoods. This might be labeled as a "racist" observation itself if you wish, but imo it does speak to the root of the problem in a good part.

Also, it is foreseeable that the younger generations of AA and hispanic parents-to-be will no longer use the excuse to blame the failure of their children at school to the historical racial problems, as they grow up under the no-child-left-behind policy which should discourage them from using it any more.
When I said that Asians had suffered under slavery from 1609 to 1863, that was sarcasm. Of course African Americans suffered under slavery etc.

The no child left behind policy. Wow, what a joke. That policy has saved ...hmmm...let me count....about zero children.

I can't believe how heartless and ignorant people are. African Americans and Latinos can't blame historical situations. That's a good one.

And I hate to resort to this type of argument, but all of you folks touting Asian success: where's the Asian Shakespeare? The Asian Rembrandt? The Asian Bach? There's more to being a human than being good at taking tests and following the instructions of a teacher.

Tiger moms produce mediocrity and conformity, not creativity. Berkeley California used to be a hotbed of dissent and creativity. Now it's test-taking central.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 08:48 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn, New York, United States
357 posts, read 724,963 times
Reputation: 353
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticvisa View Post
When I said that Asians had suffered under slavery from 1609 to 1863, that was sarcasm. Of course African Americans suffered under slavery etc.

The no child left behind policy. Wow, what a joke. That policy has saved ...hmmm...let me count....about zero children.

I can't believe how heartless and ignorant people are. African Americans and Latinos can't blame historical situations. That's a good one.

And I hate to resort to this type of argument, but all of you folks touting Asian success: where's the Asian Shakespeare? The Asian Rembrandt? The Asian Bach? There's more to being a human than being good at taking tests and following the instructions of a teacher.

Tiger moms produce mediocrity and conformity, not creativity. Berkeley California used to be a hotbed of dissent and creativity. Now it's test-taking central.
sigh....

- once again, these schools, which mostly focus on math and science, are not going to develop Shakespeares, Rembrandts, and Bachs. That is not their objective, since they are based on math and science (6 out of 8 of them). This is where, I believe, I state that these are not the only highly regarded or good public schools in the city.

- Yes, historical situations have and continue to affect African Americans. But there is no denying that parents taking an active role in things can have a huge influence. Sadly, such things are beyond the scope of this thread.

- Your point about Shakespeare, Rembrandt, Bach. This is were I ought to ask, What is the point of education or even our "education system"?
 
Old 10-30-2011, 11:46 AM
 
Location: West Harlem
6,885 posts, read 9,880,898 times
Reputation: 3060
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticvisa View Post

And I hate to resort to this type of argument, but all of you folks touting Asian success: where's the Asian Shakespeare? The Asian Rembrandt? The Asian Bach? There's more to being a human than being good at taking tests and following the instructions of a teacher.

Tiger moms produce mediocrity and conformity, not creativity. Berkeley California used to be a hotbed of dissent and creativity. Now it's test-taking central.
Wrong. For several reasons, Asian accomplishments in painting and literature - big ones - are barely discussed, if they are discussed at all, in western educational settings. They certainly do exist.

Suffice to say here that the assumptions regarding aesthetics and everything else are too different from the western assumptions for those cultural moments to fit in easily.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 12:22 PM
 
420 posts, read 801,892 times
Reputation: 444
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticvisa View Post
The schools are not magical Willy Wonka factories of personal transformation.

If you send a disadvantaged and unmotivated kid into even the best school he comes out disadvantaged and unmotivated.

Many kids in the "inner city" are molded by their neighborhoods and homes before even walking into a school. We need to focus on children before they even get to school.

Actually, we need to focus on their environments before they even get to school.

The Bronx is the poorest urban area in America. We have a billionaire mayor who has done NOTHING to develop business in the Bronx. there are no new economic opportunities in the Bronx to help people improve their lives.
I agree about kids being put behind the 8-ball before they have a chance to succeed. However, it is not the government's responsibility to "fix" the "inner city"; it should be the responsiblity of the inner city residents to fix their problems. The "inner city" is plagued by drugs, violence (mainly related to drugs), and lazy-ass parents who shouldn't have popped kids out as teenagers. The best example of a program changing the "inner city" is the Harlem CHildren's Zone. This is an unbelievably successful program. And it was started and is run by local residents, not some inefficient government beurocrat.

Bottom line is that blacks/latinos in the "inne city" need to step up and change their neighborhoods instead of waiting for the government to come in and do it.

Last edited by PsychDoc; 10-30-2011 at 01:03 PM..
 
Old 10-30-2011, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Manhattan
25,341 posts, read 36,840,879 times
Reputation: 12730
Quote:
Originally Posted by goldengrain View Post
I think, also, the question is -
Are our schools preparing the next generation to compete on an international market?
I think that question muddies the water. The question is do the specialized schools that discriminate presumably on the basis of intelligence, advance the needs of some students to do what they want or need to do, whatever the market.

"Competing in markets" is a terrible way to talk about education. I much better like "leading valuable lives."

There are kids who DIE in an "average class." They are bored to death and their potential is severly limited by the concept of "we are all equally intelligent and should/must therefore learn the same thing at the same pace."
These advanced schools do what they can for students who can think faster and more broadly. The concept is a good one and a life affirming one...and I wish I had the option when I was a kid instead of having to atttend classes with dullards who went from Grades 1 through 12 barely learning to read and held everyone back becasue we all had to crawl together.

If Orientals score highest on the tests then more power to them, give them the slots and get them out of NYC's Hellhole schools. It is quite likely they are SMARTER but even if it only because they work harder they deserve the slots.


I believe that a race that picks its mates based on intelligence will get smarter in a very few generations. Intelligence IS inherited. We all know that it is but it's not polite conversation.

But yes, that is a hard concept for a dummy to swallow (as are most concepts.)

Maybe to balance these premiere schools we could set up a parallel system where the student demographic compares EXACTLY with the City demographic. (I can hear the screaming now. ) Of course I'm being facetious here...who would WANT such a system? But it would indeed be perfectly non-racist.

To return to my core argument:
Either an intelligence test measures intelligence or it does not. If it does, use it to put intelligent kids into a different environment...if it does not, then discard the test and/or the schools.
And all else IS noise.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 01:44 PM
 
810 posts, read 832,517 times
Reputation: 491
Quote:
Originally Posted by celticvisa View Post
The schools are not magical Willy Wonka factories of personal transformation.

If you send a disadvantaged and unmotivated kid into even the best school he comes out disadvantaged and unmotivated.

Many kids in the "inner city" are molded by their neighborhoods and homes before even walking into a school. We need to focus on children before they even get to school.

Actually, we need to focus on their environments before they even get to school.

The Bronx is the poorest urban area in America. We have a billionaire mayor who has done NOTHING to develop business in the Bronx. there are no new economic opportunities in the Bronx to help people improve their lives.
I agree with some of this but an important element is missing. Those people have to be told honestly that they need to get their act together before they can enjoy the benefits of development. If there is investment and new business in the Bronx, the residents there need to stop with the abundant amount of stealing and mobbing that occurs in those places. Otherwise it will just turn into another Detroit.

As for education, more emphasis needs to be put on math and science instead of focusing everything on the history of slavery, civil rights and "empowerment". You don't really see Asians making a fuss about the Opium trade, Pol Pot, Korean and Vietnam War, My Lai massacre, Coolies, Japanese internment, nukes being thrown at Japan or other previous gripes.
 
Old 10-30-2011, 01:59 PM
 
Location: 20 years from now
6,453 posts, read 6,978,184 times
Reputation: 4658
Quote:
Originally Posted by AllenDullesMJ12 View Post
I agree with some of this but an important element is missing. Those people have to be told honestly that they need to get their act together before they can enjoy the benefits of development. If there is investment and new business in the Bronx, the residents there need to stop with the abundant amount of stealing and mobbing that occurs in those places. Otherwise it will just turn into another Detroit.

As for education, more emphasis needs to be put on math and science instead of focusing everything on the history of slavery, civil rights and "empowerment". You don't really see Asians making a fuss about the Opium trade, Pol Pot, Korean and Vietnam War, My Lai massacre, Coolies, Japanese internment, nukes being thrown at Japan or other previous gripes.
As much I disagreed with the anatomy of your arguments on your previous posts, this is a very good point.
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