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Old 02-03-2012, 12:34 PM
 
Location: NY,NY
2,899 posts, read 8,304,910 times
Reputation: 2021

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Quote:
Originally Posted by nykiddo718718 View Post
Traffic Jam Economics

Nancy Folbre: Traffic Jam Economics - NYTimes.com

Congestion pricing. Let's have it already.
Basic question, are you all freaking COMMUNISTS??

So, what you all want to do, is to impose and FORCE your will upon others.

Anti-American. Anti-freedom.

The United States of America is about individual freedom. It is about refusing to allow any group large or small to impose itself onto a group large or small.

I have a right to drive, if I so choose. I have a right to utilize public transportation, if I so choose. No American government entity has the Constitutional right to take any of my rights away.

This is the difference between the United States and Socialist and Communist governments. Each of those governments impose their will upon the people.

You cannot have 'freedom' if you have a government which imposes itself.

****

Our Euro-centric Mayor and dim-witted Transplant citzenzry, along with the poor and near poor, may find this attractive for the most selfish of reasons, the Mayor can buy his way, as can all of substantial means, the poor and near poor can only afford public transportation, so congestion pricing has no negative effect, the Transplants are either physco re public transportation, because they barely travel outside of Manhattan and/or their outerborough neighborhood. They appear so *neighborhood* centric, thinking, erroneously, that everything in NYC is within walking distance. Where do they get this nonsensical mindset?! I guess you grow up, isolated, in suburbia, being able to walk to the corner store or supermarket or local restaurant, must be mind blowing!

Look Ma, NO CAR!

These people must be stopped.

They have no idea what 'Native' life is like, and this includes our Boston born Mayor.

****

This is NOT Europe!

The reason such efforts appear to work in Europe is that Euros have a Socialistic society and are used to giving up their *individual* rights.

With every effort at congestion pricing and puttingthe tolls on city bridges, has failed as EVERYONE outside of the groups listed above is against the imposition upon their freedoms.

Oh, I can't come into the city anytime I dmn well please? Go F yourself!

Why do you keep trying? The people don't want it. No matter what the argument.

****

Quote:
Urban congestion exemplifies the larger problem of effectively coordinating individual decisions....
Is there anyother way to say Socialism/Communism?

Whose supposed to be doing the coordinating? The guys in the Dachas???

Quote:
Drivers are adept at anticipating delays and factoring them into decisions on whether and when to hit the road.
Individual and personal freedom, quite right!

Quote:
But, absent tolls, they are not compelled to factor in the delays their driving imposes on others.
Dim witted nonsense!

Everybody is on the road, so WHO is imposing themselves??

WHO determines WHO in the traffic jam is the imposition?

Absolute nonsense, taking power from the individual, and given it to the guys in the Dachas!

Quote:
Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg pushed hard in 2008 for New York City to put a congestion pricing plan into effect, but opposition was fierce from those living or working in other boroughs, and the state Legislature never came close to authorizing the plan.
Precisely.

Congestion pricing simply serves to price out those who cannot afford, and price in those who can afford. It is a manner in which the eliites can pay to drive free, while everyone else gets shafted.

It curtails those in the boroughs to make full use of THEIR city. It raises the cost of living in the boroughs and the suburbs.

Is Manhattan only for Transplants living in Manhattan? Is Manhattan only for Manhattanites?

I choose and prefer PERSONAL transportation, not MASS transportation.

Do I not have this right? Doesn't the Constitution provide and guarantee me this freedom?

****

Quote:
Modern electronic toll collection systems make it easy to accomplish important details. Deliveries of food and other supplies to the area could be timed at nonpeak hours.
More Socialism/Communism!!

Sooo, the government is going to dictate when and where one can do business. The guys in the Dachas are telling me when to eat???

Quote:
The resulting changes could make it easier for residents of the boroughs and suburbs to get into and out of the central business district.
Yeah, ONLY for the residents who can afford it. Dweeb nonsense. An elitist system! Precisely what NYC is NOT!!
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Old 02-03-2012, 01:09 PM
 
Location: New York NY
4,133 posts, read 5,940,379 times
Reputation: 8670
This isn't anything even close to socialism or comminuism. It's the exact opposite -- hard -core capitalism at its most extreme. Why? Because you must pay for what you use. I don't pay fopr it and neither does anyone else but you-- who has to pay for the right to drive downtown at a certain time.

Economists talk about "the tragedy of the commons" Establishing a common area in a town where everyone could let their cattle graze seemed like a great idea. Until everyone did it and soon there was no commons left because everyone boight more and more cattle. the grass was gone. Its the same idea here. Everybody can drive in Midtown because we all paid for the roads with our taxes --until things become so congested NOBODY can drive at all. Same Principle. So you have to ration who gets to drive there at some point. In a capitalist society that rationing is done by price.

You can make arguments about whether we need it or not, how it might affect mass transit, how to handle delivery trucks and cabs, and the like. But essentially its a pretty hard core capitalist way to allocate who gets to drive in Midtown and who doesn't. Whoever can pay the price can drive wherever and whenever he wants.
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Old 02-03-2012, 02:49 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,552,768 times
Reputation: 4168
Well said city...and by the way..there is no restriction of rights. His argument is like saying you are making me buy car insurance...you can't do that because I can't afford car insurance and therefore I can't drive...you are infringing on my rights!

His argument is that of a 5 year old who doesn't get his way....it's not fair because it isn't fair to me! Waaaaaaa! And the way people throw around socialism all the time like it is the devil is laughable.

Those screaming the most about the evils of socialism are usually the ones exploiting the socialist aspects of our society: public education, social security, medicare, medicaid, disability, unemployment, and on and on. You do realize we already live in a socialist society right? If you don't want it though...you are welcome to shun all the programs I listed above...but somehow they never do. Strange huh?

Maybe when jcoltrane gets hit by a car, then has to get transported by ambulance (for free thanks to medicaid because he has no insurance) and get stuck in a 2 hour traffic jam because of the traffic and dies, he might understand why freeing up space in Manhattan might be a good idea.
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Old 02-03-2012, 08:45 PM
 
Location: Planet Earth
3,849 posts, read 7,292,448 times
Reputation: 1562
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
Those screaming the most about the evils of socialism are usually the ones exploiting the socialist aspects of our society: public education, social security, medicare, medicaid, disability, unemployment, and on and on. You do realize we already live in a socialist society right? If you don't want it though...you are welcome to shun all the programs I listed above...but somehow they never do. Strange huh?
Not to mention that when he uses the free East River Bridges and the free streets in Manhattan, he's also taking advantage of our "socialist" government.

Citylove is right. It's actually the opposite of socialism and of course, nobody's actually preventing him from driving in. They aren't setting up a blockade or anything. If he has the money, he can still drive in. And chances are if he can afford the cost of gas and parking in Manhattan, he's not going to go broke paying a congestion pricing fee.
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:36 PM
 
Location: Washington, DC & New York
10,750 posts, read 25,526,667 times
Reputation: 6676
Congestion pricing is another tax on vehicle owners to fund the MTA, which seemingly wants an unlimited budget. Don't delude yourselves into thinking that this will increase mass transit options in the city because it will be just another funding source that the agency uses to get its way while still providing a deteriorating level of service, especially with all the riders such a plan would force into the system.

If the city wants to look into HOT lanes whereby one could elect to pay a toll to drive in a free-er lane (since I doubt it would be free-flowing) to get around some of the traffic on the avenues, that's one thing, since there is a choice involved. However, it's not feasible as there is no way that I know of to expand the roadways for such use, without destroying large swaths of the city. Eliminating on-street parking on some avenues might help to create enough room for such a lane, but why not build a bicycle expressway instead?

The MTA already taxes businesses with the MCTMT which includes suburban counties, so now they wish to tax the individual for yet more funding, which is what congestion pricing is in reality. It's very generous under the proposal linked to allow one trip a month in the congestion corridor for free, when the rights of people who live and drive in Manhattan have been removed in favor of yet another control. There are people who own property in Manhattan, yet have vehicles that are registered to another house, or may use a rental car, yet they have to pay a tax to get to their own house? Furthermore, one who lives in Queens or Brooklyn, yet has a need to drive downtown has to pay congestion pricing when they are already city residents? How can this be justified when using public funds to build and maintain roadways as they are not fee-for-use, i.e., toll roads, and any attempt at using that language would be met with opposition.

Who determines the level of congestion when pricing comes into play, and is it a set toll/tax, for entering the zone, or is it pro-rated by how long one is in the zone? What about carpools? Do they get to drive for free within the zone, or at reduced tax rates? If they city were designed with a truly central business district, i.e., no residential/medical/or other uses in the same zone, then sure, said tax could be imposed within that district; but, that is not Manhattan.

The MTA is already subsidized by toll monies, not to mention the MCTMT, and numerous other sources of tax, like cabs, vehicle registrations, etc. in an attempt to shift monies that keep the mass transit fares artificially low, and at a single price point. Many other transit systems use zone pricing by ridership distance, so that those who use more of the system's resources pay proportionally more than those who use the system for shorter rides. The MTA is a mess, and needs to be overhauled, IMO, not provided with another source of tax revenue by enacting toll zones on existing public streets that are supported by taxpayer contributions, many of whom are already taxed by the MTA.

Manhattan already has fire lanes and bus lanes that allow for transport of emergency vehicles, and mass transit vehicles, so perhaps better lane descriptions and an electronic toll collection service for vehicles that "stray" into those lanes for travel, not to make a turn, would be a more productive means of enforcement. People who were hit with a $250 toll for driving in the bus lane, for example, during peak hours, from 86th Street to 59th Street, would most likely not do it again, but with little chance of real enforcement, people may drive in the lanes when they should not do so.

And, when the MTA exhausts Manhattan, I could easily foresee special transportation corridor pricing introduced on other roadways in the outer boroughs, so that there would be even more money to waste, especially if congestion revenues dip in Manhattan because people are forced to take public transit. Perhaps then, bicycles would have to be licensed as well, so that registration taxes, and perhaps even tolls could be collected from those who choose to ride their bicycle, and not patronize the MTA. What's next? Walkers being charged for excessive sidewalk wear because their municipally-issued pedometers reported that they had walked 50 more miles than the average citizen in their zone did during the same period? Yes, I am being extreme, but it's very easy to point the finger at another who commutes differently, i.e., the characterization that all auto trips are frivolous, and that nobody "needs" a car in the city.

If one were truly being fair, there would be an increase in the city resident income tax, and a special use commutation tax on transportation into the city from suburban jurisdictions. That way the revenue generation would not be disguised, and would be paid by everyone in the city, regardless as to the degree to which they used the MTA's transit options. Pointing the finger at one segment of the population, and then decreeing that they must pay the tax for daring to drive on a publicly supported street may improve auto transit, but would create congestion issues on mass transit options. And, don't look for too many solutions anytime soon, since it's taken how many decades to get a subway east of Lexington? At least with a larger population paying the increased MTA tax, there might be a bit more accountability within the agency for its actions, and cost structures. One can dream...
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Old 02-03-2012, 09:48 PM
 
4,911 posts, read 6,818,691 times
Reputation: 4279
bmwguy just waltzed in here and dropped scud missiles of logic all over this thread.


Like a BOSS

Last edited by availableusername; 02-03-2012 at 09:57 PM..
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Old 02-05-2012, 02:53 AM
 
1,682 posts, read 2,626,157 times
Reputation: 708
^-Forgetting that the point of congestion pricing is not only raise funds, but reduce the desire to drive. Most Manhattanites do not drive, yet still suffer from the congestion (including things like Asthma, accidents, noise). Most city dwellers (75%+ in all boroughs) do not even commute into the Manhattan by personal automobile but mass transit.

Take the subway, bus, bike, or even carpool. The less cars the better. Unsustainable. The cash is a bonus.
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Old 02-05-2012, 07:44 AM
 
400 posts, read 831,994 times
Reputation: 246
What about extending train lines in QUeens? The 7, the A and the F.
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Old 02-05-2012, 09:48 AM
 
Location: On the Rails in Northern NJ
12,381 posts, read 22,624,383 times
Reputation: 4504
Before we toll anything more in this region , lets expand the Regional Rail system on both sides...which is where people head to when they raise the tolls...lets look at a list of backed up Regional Rail projects...build half the proposed projects below then we can talk about congestion pricing...I got the projects and ridership numbers from the RPA...

New Jersey

Station by Station

Current , Under Construction , and Proposed Stations


Regional Rail

Atlantic line (2010 : 4,200 > 2030 : 6,800 daily Riders

Philadelphia-30th Street Station
Pennsauken Transit Center
Cherry Hill
Lindenwood
Atco
Hammonton
Egg Harbor City
Absecon
Atlantic City


North Jersey Coast line (2010 : 18,400 > 2030 : 35,000 Daily Riders)

Bay Head
Point Pleasant Beach
Manasquan
Spring Lake
Belmar
Bradley Beach
Asbury Park
Allenhurst
Elberon
Long Branch
Monmouth Park
Little Silver
Red Bank
Middletown
Hazlet
Aberdeen-Matawan
Laurence Harbor
South Amboy
Perth Amboy
Woodbridge
Avenel
Rahway
Linden
Broad St. Elizabeth
North Elizabeth
Newark Airport
Newark Penn
Hoboken


Northeast Corridor (2010 : 50,000 > 2030 : 110,000 Daily Riders)

Trenton
Hamilton
Princeton JCT
Jersey Ave (Southbound only)
New Brunswick
Edison
Metchun
Metropark
Rahway
Linden
Midtown Elizabeth
North Elizabeth
Newark Airport
Newark Penn station
Secaucus JCT
New York Penn


Gladstone Branch (2010 : 4,700 > 2030 : 6,900 Daily Riders)

Gladstone
Peapack
Far Hills
Bernardsville
Basking Ridge
Lyons
Millington
Stirling
Gillette
Berkeley Heights
Murray Hill
New Providence
Summit
Short Hills
Millburn
Maplewood
South Orange
Mountain Station
Highland Ave
Orange
Brick Church
East Orange
Newark Board Street
Harrison
Hoboken


Morristown line (2010 : 50,000 > 2030 : 85,000 Daily Riders)

Philpsburg - Main Street
Philpsburg - US 22 / NJ 57 Park / Ride
Washington

Hackettstown
Mount Olive
Netcong
Lake Hopatcong
Mount Arlington
Dover
Denville
Mount Tabor
Morris Plains
Morristown
Convent Station
Madison
Chatham
Summit
Short Hills
Millburn
Maplewood
South Orange
Orange
Brick Church
Newark Board Street
Harrison
Hoboken


Montclair - Boonton line (2010 : 17,400 > 2030 : 28,000 Daily Riders)

Hackettstown
Mount Olive
Netcong
Lake Hopatcong
Mount Arlington
Dover
Denville
Mountain Lakes
Boonton
Towaco
Lincoln Park
Mountain View-Wayne
Wayne-Route 23
Little Falls
Montclair State University
Montclair Heights
Mountain Avenue
Upper Montclair
Watchung Avenue
Walnut Street
Bay Street
Glen Ridge
Bloomfield
Watsessing Avenue
Ampere
Newark-Broad St
Harrison
Hoboken


Raritan Valley Line (2010 : 17,500 > 2030 : 25,000 Daily riders)

Phillipsburg
Bloomsbury
Ludlow
Hampton
Glen Gardner

High Bridge
Annandale
Lebanon
White House
North Branch
Raritan
Somerville
Bridgewater
Bound Brook
Dunellen
Plainfield
Netherwood
Fanwood
Westfield
Garwood
Cranford
Roselle Park
Union
Newark Penn station
Hoboken (Peak Hours only)



Morristown line - Midtown Direct Service

Dover
Denville
Mount Tabor
Morris Plains
Morristown
Convent Station
Madison
Chatham
Summit
Short Hills
Millburn
Maplewood
South Orange
Orange
Brick Church
Newark Board Street
Harrison
Secaucus JCT
New York Penn station


Montclair line - Midtown Direct Service

Montclair State University
Montclair Heights
Mountain Avenue
Upper Montclair
Watchung Avenue
Walnut Street
Bay Street
Glen Ridge
Bloomfield
Watsessing Avenue
Ampere
Newark-Broad St
Harrison
Secaucus JCT
New York Penn station


Pascack Valley line (2010 : 3,800 > 2030 : 12,400 Daily Riders)
Hoboken Terminal
Secaucus JCT
Wood-Ridge
Teterboro
Essex Street - Hackensack
Anderson Street - Hackensack
New Bridge Landing
River Edge
Oradell
Emerson
Westwood
Hillsdale
Woodcliff Lake
Park Ridge
Montvale
Pearl River
Pfizer Plant
Nanuet
Spring Valley
Monsey
Airmont
East Suffern
Hillburn


Port Jervis line (2010 : 3,400 > 2030 : 9,100 Daily Riders)
Hoboken Terminal
Secaucus JCT
Paterson
Ridgewood
Suffern
Hillburn
Sloatsburg
Tuxedo
Harriman
Salisbury Mills-Cornwall
Campbell Hall
Middletown-Town of Wallkill
Otisville
Port Jervis


Main Line (2010 : 9,160 > 2030 : 25,000 Daily Riders)
Hoboken
Secaucus JCT
Kingsland
Lyndhurst
Delawanna
Passaic
Clifton
Paterson
North Paterson
Hawthorne Transit Center

Glen Rock
Ridgewood
Ho-Ho-Kus
Waldwick
Allendale
Ramsey-Main St.
Ramsey-Route 17
Mahwah
Suffern
Hillburn


Bergen line (2010 : 4,305 Daily Riders > 2030 : 13,900 Daily Riders)
Hoboken Terminal
Secaucus JCT
Rutherford
Wesmont
Garfield
Plaunderville
Broadway - Fair Lawn
Radburn - Fair Lawn
Glen Rock Boro Hall
Ridgewood
Ho-Ho-Kus
Waldwick
Allendale
Ramsey-Main St.
Ramsey-Route 17
Mahwah
Suffern


Proposed lines

West Trenton line - (2030 : 14,000 Daily Riders)

West Trenton Transit Center
I-95 Park / Ride
Hopewell
Belle Mead
Hillsborough

Bridgewater
Bound Brook
Dunellen
Plainfield
Netherwood
Fanwood
Westfield
Garwood
Cranford
Roselle Park
Union
Newark Penn station
Hoboken


West Shore line - (2030 : 45,000 Daily Riders)
Hoboken Terminal
Jersey City Heights (Secaucus Road)
North Bergen Transit Center

Vince Lombradi Park & Ride
Ridgefield Park
Cedar Lane - Teaneck
West Englewood
Bergenfield
Haworth
Harrington Park
Tappan
Blauvelt
Valley Cottage
Congers
Haverstraw
Stony Point
Bear Mountain
Highland Falls
West Point
Cornwall on Hudson
Newburgh
Milton
Kingston


Cape May Branch (2030 : 3,000 Daily Riders)

Philadelphia-30th Street Station
Pennsauken Transit Center
Cherry Hill
Lindenwood
Atco
Woodbine
Cape May Courthouse
Rio Grande
North Cape May
Cape May



Pompton / Old Boonton Branch - (2030 : 18,000 Daily Riders)

Butler
I-287 Park / Ride
Pompton Lakes
Pompton Plains
Pequannock
Wayne Town Center

Mountain View-Wayne
Wayne-Route 23
Little Falls
Montclair State University
Montclair Heights
Mountain Avenue
Upper Montclair
Watchung Avenue
Walnut Street
Benson Street
Rowe Street
North Newark
Arlington
West Arlington
Laurel Hill State Park

Hoboken


Passaic - Bergen Rail Link - (2030 : 12,000 Daily Riders)
Route 23 Park & Ride @ Butler
Butler
Pompton Lakes
Oakland
Wyckoff
Midland Park

Hawthrone Transit Center
Madison Ave - Paterson
Elmwood Park
Saddle Brook
American Legion Drive - Hackensack
Main Street - Hackensack
Ridgefield Park
Vince Lombradi - I-95 Park & Ride

North Bergen Transit Center
Jersey City Heights (Secaucus Road)
Hoboken Terminal

MOM Network

Red Bank Branch - (2030 : 60,000 Daily Riders)

Manchester / Lakehurst
Jackson
Lakewood
Howell - Glen Road
Howell - Route 33
Eatontown

Red Bank
Middletown
Hazlet
Aberdeen-Matawan
Laurence Harbor
South Amboy
Perth Amboy
Woodbridge
Avenel
Rahway
Linden
Broad St. Elizabeth
North Elizabeth
Newark Airport
Newark Penn
Hoboken


Jamesburg Branch - (2030 : 24,000 Daily Riders)

Manchester / Lakehurst
Jackson
Lakewood
Howell - Glen Road
Freehold
Freehold Boro - Throckmorton Street
Manalapan
Jamesburg
South Brunswick

Jersey Ave (Southbound only)
New Brunswick
Edison
Metchun
Metropark
Rahway
Linden
Midtown Elizabeth
North Elizabeth
Newark Airport
Newark Penn station
Secaucus JCT
New York Penn


Matawan Branch - (2030 : 35,000 Daily Riders)

Manchester / Lakehurst
Jackson
Lakewood
Howell - Glen Road
Freehold
Freehold Boro - Jackson Street
Marlboro
Morganville

Aberdeen-Matawan
Laurence Harbor
South Amboy
Perth Amboy
Woodbridge
Avenel
Rahway
Linden
Broad St. Elizabeth
North Elizabeth
Newark Airport
Newark Penn
Hoboken



South Amboy Branch (2030 : 12,000 Daily Riders)

Manchester / Lakehurst
Jackson
Lakewood
Howell - Glen Road
Freehold
Freehold Boro - Throckmorton Street
Manalapan
Jamesburg
Helmetta
Spotswood
Route 18 Park & Ride
Madison Park
South Amboy

Perth Amboy
Woodbridge
Avenel
Rahway
Linden
Broad St. Elizabeth
North Elizabeth
Newark Airport
Newark Penn
Secaucus JCT
New York Penn
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Old 02-05-2012, 10:10 AM
 
4,911 posts, read 6,818,691 times
Reputation: 4279
Quote:
Originally Posted by nykiddo718718 View Post
^-Forgetting that the point of congestion pricing is not only raise funds, but reduce the desire to drive. Most Manhattanites do not drive, yet still suffer from the congestion (including things like Asthma, accidents, noise). Most city dwellers (75%+ in all boroughs) do not even commute into the Manhattan by personal automobile but mass transit.

Take the subway, bus, bike, or even carpool. The less cars the better. Unsustainable. The cash is a bonus.

I like how you didn't address anything that he said. You did however at least throw around cool buzzwords like "unsustsinable", so that's good.
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