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Old 02-23-2012, 10:27 AM
 
Location: Brooklyn
2,812 posts, read 2,550,554 times
Reputation: 5159

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
Unlike the Tea Party, which sprung out of the same frustration being expressed by people with different mindsets than the OWS crowd, this rabble hasn't figured out how to appeal to a wider audience. The only support they have recieved is the support of people who fall into the same political leanings. They will not accomplish anything unless they can attract people who would not normally agree with them.
Exactly. Until they learn they need to attract mainstream America they will just continue to polarize us, probably as much as politics already has.

This current group of protesters have a severe case of tunnel vision.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:46 AM
 
Location: Chicago
10,409 posts, read 4,909,919 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
Neither party has the interests of the people in mind. You probably find it interesting that I say that and still refuse to support OWS. But here's a quote that sums up why:



Unlike the Tea Party, which sprung out of the same frustration being expressed by people with different mindsets than the OWS crowd, this rabble hasn't figured out how to appeal to a wider audience. The only support they have recieved is the support of people who fall into the same political leanings. They will not accomplish anything unless they can attract people who would not normally agree with them.
Ron Paul recently stated that we're heading towards a fascist state. I have Republican and Independent friends who support the movement.

As far as the Tea Party reaching a wider audience, they failed at that. Largely impart to the media focusing on extremists of the movement. Sound familiar?

If you were truly American you wouldn't be Democrat or Republican at this point in history. If you'd like to debate, I'll debate. But if it's just going to be Side A vs. Side B I'll pass. The world never has been black and white.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:48 AM
 
Location: Chicago
10,409 posts, read 4,909,919 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by makossa View Post
Exactly. Until they learn they need to attract mainstream America they will just continue to polarize us, probably as much as politics already has.

This current group of protesters have a severe case of tunnel vision.
I'd actually say a vast majority of young Americans hold the same belief regardless of party affiliation. I believe it is only a matter of time before our generation has the organization and voting presence to start changing dated traditions and policies. There will definitely be some changes to our economic system as most see the system as corrupt and broken.
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Old 02-23-2012, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
3,932 posts, read 2,250,798 times
Reputation: 2932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtownoe View Post
If you were truly American you wouldn't be Democrat or Republican at this point in history. If you'd like to debate, I'll debate. But if it's just going to be Side A vs. Side B I'll pass. The world never has been black and white.
If you think I play Side A v Side B politics, you didn't read the first sentence of my statement you quoted.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:01 AM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
3,932 posts, read 2,250,798 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtownoe View Post
There will definitely be some changes to our economic system as most see the system as corrupt and broken.
How? See, we can do this all day. Making statements like this won't change anything, just as writing the same statement on a piece of cardboard and walking it around downtown hasn't. What the Tea Party most definitely accomplished was getting seats in Congress. OWS hasn't even entered politics. You can be against "the system", but this system is in place and likely will be for a long time, so if you want to change it, you have to be in it.

So again, what exactly does OWS plan to do to achieve any of their goals? As I said earlier, goals shouldn't be the focus of naysayers because goals are easy to blurt out, write down, blog about, etc. It is how one works to get their goals accomplished that makes the difference. So far, all I've seen is some camping and parading around. That's not how wars are won.

In the past, I refused to support Ron Paul because I felt like he was compromising his values by being a member of the Republican Party. As I got older though, I realized that the only way for someone like him to have a voice is to be a part of the system, and in his case, that means utilizing the resources of the Republican Party. Since that realization, I've become a staunch supporter of his because his ideas align with mine, and because he is at least attemping to get something done about them, not just talking about it. I see OWS doing the exact opposite.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:23 AM
 
Location: Chicago
10,409 posts, read 4,909,919 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
How? See, we can do this all day. Making statements like this won't change anything, just as writing the same statement on a piece of cardboard and walking it around downtown hasn't. What the Tea Party most definitely accomplished was getting seats in Congress. OWS hasn't even entered politics. You can be against "the system", but this system is in place and likely will be for a long time, so if you want to change it, you have to be in it.

So again, what exactly does OWS plan to do to achieve any of their goals? As I said earlier, goals shouldn't be the focus of naysayers because goals are easy to blurt out, write down, blog about, etc. It is how one works to get their goals accomplished that makes the difference. So far, all I've seen is some camping and parading around. That's not how wars are won.

In the past, I refused to support Ron Paul because I felt like he was compromising his values by being a member of the Republican Party. As I got older though, I realized that the only way for someone like him to have a voice is to be a part of the system, and in his case, that means utilizing the resources of the Republican Party. Since that realization, I've become a staunch supporter of his because his ideas align with mine, and because he is at least attemping to get something done about them, not just talking about it. I see OWS doing the exact opposite.

There are many projects in the works designed to confront the corruption in our government and legal system. Those engines and businesses take time to construct though.

A business that I know of supposedly has constructed a plan to take over an entire industry and regulate it so that revenues go directly to the suppliers cutting out the middle man.

Who knows what type of business culture we could develop if citizens can create successful businesses that are also healthy for our country and communities. It's just my opinion, but I think your going to see our corporate culture take on much more social responsibility. In our capitalistic society, where money=power, corporations have begun to rival government institutions in influence. I either see the public holding these corps to higher standards (better wages, less polluting, less outsourcing), or either the public choosing to support corps that are socially aware which would have the same effect.

The public's views about corporations are changing.
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Old 02-23-2012, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Chicago
10,409 posts, read 4,909,919 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
How? See, we can do this all day. Making statements like this won't change anything, just as writing the same statement on a piece of cardboard and walking it around downtown hasn't. What the Tea Party most definitely accomplished was getting seats in Congress. OWS hasn't even entered politics. You can be against "the system", but this system is in place and likely will be for a long time, so if you want to change it, you have to be in it.

So again, what exactly does OWS plan to do to achieve any of their goals? As I said earlier, goals shouldn't be the focus of naysayers because goals are easy to blurt out, write down, blog about, etc. It is how one works to get their goals accomplished that makes the difference. So far, all I've seen is some camping and parading around. That's not how wars are won.

In the past, I refused to support Ron Paul because I felt like he was compromising his values by being a member of the Republican Party. As I got older though, I realized that the only way for someone like him to have a voice is to be a part of the system, and in his case, that means utilizing the resources of the Republican Party. Since that realization, I've become a staunch supporter of his because his ideas align with mine, and because he is at least attemping to get something done about them, not just talking about it. I see OWS doing the exact opposite.
I voted for Obama last election but have been somewhat dissapointed by him. I've re-posted some of Ron Paul's messages on my facebook page. I actually applaud him for his honesty and his unwillingness to simply conform, even when it's made him unpopular.

Believe me when I say that I'm unbiased when it comes to political parties or ideology. I have values based on reason, and those determine who I vote for.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:03 PM
 
458 posts, read 287,096 times
Reputation: 339
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
How? See, we can do this all day. Making statements like this won't change anything, just as writing the same statement on a piece of cardboard and walking it around downtown hasn't.
Yes! This this this! Why do so many people find this so hard to understand!?!? Simply stating that a problem exists does not fix it...

OWS needs to organize and develop policy objectives or it will go down in history as just another anti-establishment protest that, like the ones in the 1960's, accomplished nothing except funding lots of weed dealers.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtownoe View Post
Believe me when I say that I'm unbiased when it comes to political parties or ideology.
All politics and ideology is, by definition, biased.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:18 PM
 
Location: Staten Island, NY
3,932 posts, read 2,250,798 times
Reputation: 2932
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gtownoe View Post
There are many projects in the works designed to confront the corruption in our government and legal system. Those engines and businesses take time to construct though.

A business that I know of supposedly has constructed a plan to take over an entire industry and regulate it so that revenues go directly to the suppliers cutting out the middle man.

Who knows what type of business culture we could develop if citizens can create successful businesses that are also healthy for our country and communities. It's just my opinion, but I think your going to see our corporate culture take on much more social responsibility. In our capitalistic society, where money=power, corporations have begun to rival government institutions in influence. I either see the public holding these corps to higher standards (better wages, less polluting, less outsourcing), or either the public choosing to support corps that are socially aware which would have the same effect.

The public's views about corporations are changing.
I wrote a nice response to this and promptly lost it when I hit submit and lost my connection somehow...

Basically, you're just doing it again: lofty statements with no substance. This isn't a personal jab, I'm just trying to get you to understand why people like me cannot support this movement.

Paragraph 1: basically says nothing.

Paragraph 2: Sounds good, now give me some substance. What does this mean? You guys rant about people being "sheep", but give the same exact level of information as the side you are ranting against. Anyone who takes statements like paragraph number 2 and gets excited with hearing more, is far closer to a sheep than I'll ever be. Are you trying to tell me that you're supporting a corporation that wants to take over an entire industry? You don't see how this makes no sense, considering it flies in the face of OWS' main argument?

Paragraph 3 and final sentence: Again, lofty goals, wordy, attractive to young, disallusioned people, but NO SUBSTANCE. You even start with the question "Who knows?"

Well, sorry, but I need to know, or else I cannot support them.
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Old 02-23-2012, 01:47 PM
 
Location: Chicago
10,409 posts, read 4,909,919 times
Reputation: 2086
Quote:
Originally Posted by Airborneguy View Post
I wrote a nice response to this and promptly lost it when I hit submit and lost my connection somehow...

Basically, you're just doing it again: lofty statements with no substance. This isn't a personal jab, I'm just trying to get you to understand why people like me cannot support this movement.

Paragraph 1: basically says nothing.

Paragraph 2: Sounds good, now give me some substance. What does this mean? You guys rant about people being "sheep", but give the same exact level of information as the side you are ranting against. Anyone who takes statements like paragraph number 2 and gets excited with hearing more, is far closer to a sheep than I'll ever be. Are you trying to tell me that you're supporting a corporation that wants to take over an entire industry? You don't see how this makes no sense, considering it flies in the face of OWS' main argument?

Paragraph 3 and final sentence: Again, lofty goals, wordy, attractive to young, disallusioned people, but NO SUBSTANCE. You even start with the question "Who knows?"

Well, sorry, but I need to know, or else I cannot support them.
Wait until the Fall and you should see the business example I gave.

As far as that business, yes the plan is to take over a corrupt industry. Not to control it, but to give control back to those who are the reason it exist. The creators.

As far as substance, I'm more than willing to give more concrete answers.

Debt:Cut military spending drastically first of all. Half of our overall budget goes towards the military. I'm pro legalization (see Portugal's success) and pro rehabilitation. I believe our current "war on drugs" is a waste of tax dollars. Our incarceration rates are some of the highest in the WORLD and we're spending way too much on drug enforcement. I'd also be for increasing taxes on the wealthy and cutting loopholes in our tax code. For the poor and middle class, tax rates would remain the same.

Corporate Greed:Regulation, regulation, regulation. Our financial institutions need to be put in check and I'd even go so far as to propose incentives for employers who take care of their employees. Americans can only spend what they have, and right now, many don't even have enough for basic neccessities. We are in a system where those who don't have money to invest (poor and lower middle class) are left out of the cash flow of our most profitable corporations. AMERICAN corporations have an obligation to take care of America. Currently, money goes directly from execs, to investors and Wall Street.


I've got many more ideas but don't feel like typing. What are some of your ideas?
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