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Old 02-14-2012, 03:03 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,053,964 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieronymus Bosch View Post
At least the rubber rooms get some deviants and awful teachers away from the kids. The alternative would be to let them keep doing damage while trying to get rid of them, or end up paying out even bigger lawsuits now and again.
No, the alternative is to de-unionize and actually fire teachers right away.

The only job protection that should exist is the individual being good at his/her job. A contract preventing someone from being fired is nothing short of idiotic.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:04 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,898 posts, read 4,951,484 times
Reputation: 2166
Quote:
Originally Posted by nyctc7 View Post
It is not about being blue collar. The difference is that my salary and benefits and retirement is not being paid for by the taxpayer. It used to be that public sector workers made a sort of "deal": they had somewhat lower salaries than the private sector but in return had job protection, generous benefits including so-called "cadillac" health plans, and a solid retirement plan. But nowadays, they have all that AND are making pretty darn generous salaries as well. You could say "good for them" or see that we as taxpayers can't afford it!
So instead of trying to get better benefits and salary from your employer
you rather see somebody else get theirs slashed?
Again, having a working class person become worse off, won't improve your economic situation. It's a pyrrhic victory.

In my case, I don't focus on the little blue-collar guy.

I see other things we can't afford.

We can't afford the income inequality that has been getting greater by the year.

We can't afford to give permanent tax cuts to the top 5%

We can't afford mega-corporations to dictate and control our political system

We can't afford to have such a large military fighting stupid wars abroad.

We can't afford afford many things, but we can definitely afford to pay a living wage to our cops, firefighters, and civil service workers.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:06 PM
 
142 posts, read 219,634 times
Reputation: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post
The evaluations that are currently done mean nothing when it comes to compensation and I have never heard of a teacher getting fired for a poor one. So what are these evaluations worth?

Well, isn't what a teacher is supposed to be doing is teaching students something? I think student progress should be part of the evaluation.
Evaluations mean everything in terms of getting renewed, attaining initial certification, and securing tenure. It is not at all difficult to get rid of a new teacher with poor evaluations, though usually this will happen without an official firing (non-renewed, encouraged to resign, etc.). Once tenure has been established, then yes, it is a different story, which is what eventually leads us to the rubber room compromise. This is also why you can find people making 100k in the rubber rooms, as it is the highest-paid veteran teachers who they're handling like live landmines. Whether these people were always bad apples, and how they got into the system if they were, is another story altogether.

Evaluations are used to communicate with teachers as well, and modify their behavior. If you get a bad evaluation from your principal, and do nothing to address the issues raised, then there are many, many ways to make your life miserable.

Tying compensation to evaluations is another matter entirely. Obviously, some jobs will routinely do this, while others won't. The biggest problem I see with it is that so much of the job might not be measured in evaluations, and that so much of the work in a school requires cooperation. It seems like it would be far too easy for someone to game the system at the expense of more altruistic colleagues, or for corrupt administrators to blatantly abuse it.

And again, tying evaluations and compensation to student performance is another matter entirely. If we got down to brass tacks, I'm sure I could devise a rubric for this that you would find unfair, and vice verse. In its current forms, I tend to think it'll just lead to an army of corporate script-readers who are rewarded for getting their kids to fill in bubbles more effectively. But it really is a very new and different issue, one that is very unlikely to affect the veteran teachers whiling away their time in the rubber room.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:17 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 28,031,167 times
Reputation: 7250
Quote:
Originally Posted by availableusername View Post
Yes all of them. That shouldn't be questioned at all.


/sarcasm
Part of the pension should be that they should be forced to stay in NY and pay taxes on it.

(Yes, I know, I am just pipe dreaming. Pass the opium!)
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:20 PM
 
Location: Nassau, Long Island, NY
16,416 posts, read 28,031,167 times
Reputation: 7250
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieronymus Bosch View Post
Evaluations mean everything in terms of getting renewed, attaining initial certification, and securing tenure. It is not at all difficult to get rid of a new teacher with poor evaluations, though usually this will happen without an official firing (non-renewed, encouraged to resign, etc.). Once tenure has been established, then yes, it is a different story, which is what eventually leads us to the rubber room compromise. This is also why you can find people making 100k in the rubber rooms, as it is the highest-paid veteran teachers who they're handling like live landmines. Whether these people were always bad apples, and how they got into the system if they were, is another story altogether.

Evaluations are used to communicate with teachers as well, and modify their behavior. If you get a bad evaluation from your principal, and do nothing to address the issues raised, then there are many, many ways to make your life miserable.

Tying compensation to evaluations is another matter entirely. Obviously, some jobs will routinely do this, while others won't. The biggest problem I see with it is that so much of the job might not be measured in evaluations, and that so much of the work in a school requires cooperation. It seems like it would be far too easy for someone to game the system at the expense of more altruistic colleagues, or for corrupt administrators to blatantly abuse it.

And again, tying evaluations and compensation to student performance is another matter entirely. If we got down to brass tacks, I'm sure I could devise a rubric for this that you would find unfair, and vice verse. In its current forms, I tend to think it'll just lead to an army of corporate script-readers who are rewarded for getting their kids to fill in bubbles more effectively. But it really is a very new and different issue, one that is very unlikely to affect the veteran teachers whiling away their time in the rubber room.
TY for the detailed explanation.

I think student performance should play a part in evaluations, but should not be the main thing.

Some teachers really don't care about student performance and they should.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:21 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 28,379,285 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
No, the alternative is to de-unionize and actually fire teachers right away.

The only job protection that should exist is the individual being good at his/her job. A contract preventing someone from being fired is nothing short of idiotic.
I agree, but I would go further and say that if you want an individual to be evaluated on how good they are doing, then we should also be giving them the tools needed so that they have a chance to do a good job. Which means more teacher, smaller class sizes, more attention put on the students as an individual rather than a mass that has to learn at the same level, the proper technology training as well.

I think when all of that is addressed, then we can really get down to teachers being properly evaluated, until then teachers in poorer schools with larger class sizes will be at a disadvantage no matter how good they are.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:27 PM
 
142 posts, read 219,634 times
Reputation: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
No, the alternative is to de-unionize and actually fire teachers right away.

The only job protection that should exist is the individual being good at his/her job. A contract preventing someone from being fired is nothing short of idiotic.
No, that is not a realistic alternative. It would prove to be a much bigger headache for the dept of ed.

Actually, lots of job contracts provide protection against inappropriate firings. It is, in fact, one of their primary functions. The problem is that teaching will always be a subjective profession, so any such clauses in a teaching contract will always be contentious. At any rate, it's still not the contract that's the problem here, it's the legal issues associated with firing somebody for essentially unprovable allegations.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:29 PM
 
142 posts, read 219,634 times
Reputation: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by I_Love_LI_but View Post

I think student performance should play a part in evaluations, but should not be the main thing.

Some teachers really don't care about student performance and they should.
I agree on both points.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:35 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,053,964 times
Reputation: 5443
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieronymus Bosch View Post
No, that is not a realistic alternative. It would prove to be a much bigger headache for the dept of ed.

Actually, lots of job contracts provide protection against inappropriate firings. It is, in fact, one of their primary functions. The problem is that teaching will always be a subjective profession, so any such clauses in a teaching contract will always be contentious. At any rate, it's still not the contract that's the problem here, it's the legal issues associated with firing somebody for essentially unprovable allegations.
If you are fired inappropriately in a non-union environment, the person firing you would quickly be fired for poor performance. It is absolutely the contract that is the problem.


Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
I agree, but I would go further and say that if you want an individual to be evaluated on how good they are doing, then we should also be giving them the tools needed so that they have a chance to do a good job. Which means more teacher, smaller class sizes, more attention put on the students as an individual rather than a mass that has to learn at the same level, the proper technology training as well.

I think when all of that is addressed, then we can really get down to teachers being properly evaluated, until then teachers in poorer schools with larger class sizes will be at a disadvantage no matter how good they are.
I agree. In an ideal world (how we get there is a different question), the only job security would be a person's performance, and all pay would be 100% incentive based, using improvement as the qualifier. You are a teacher and your students improved during that year? You can make serious money. You are a teacher and your students got significantly worse that year? You should not be paid much at all, if you aren't fired first.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:35 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,608,430 times
Reputation: 4168
You guys are using the usual obfuscation and deflection. If you criticize the obvious abuses, then you are "anti-blue collar worker" and "envious." And yes we can talk about corporate greed, and I have done that too...but that's not this thread..so again..more deflecting from the actual issue. These are all 5th grade level deflections from the issue. And if it were an abuse here and there, we would not, for example, have a 95% disability retirement rate for LIRR union labor (because it is untaxed if it is disability). So no..it isn't a rare thing...the system is set up to abuse and exploit..so that's what people do, with little to no accountability to anyone.

I am all for everyone having a great health plan, well paid compensation, etc, but that is not what we are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What are we talking about:

1. We are talking about a system that has people who get paid $100K for 10 years to do nothing...and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Clearly there is something wrong.

2. We have a system that encourages people at the LIRR to file for disability pensions and they ALL get them regardless of their actual health. Clearly there is something wrong.

3. We have a system where someone retires with a disability pension for "asthma" from the Fire Department and spends his free time running marathons and triathalons. Clearly there is something wrong.

So no..I am not "envious" of the fact that they are cheating the system..why would I be? I am not a cheater, and neither are most people, which is why we are frustrated and the nation is growing increasingly hostile towards Unions. There was a time when Unions were the counterweight to corporate greed, but not anymore. They are simply another group lobbying aggressively to fatten their wallets at taxpayers expense, no different than corporations...so now we have 2 pigs at the trough!

You can try to deflect from the real issue, because when you have no argument that's what you do. But the reality is the tide is turning against unions because of the corrupt system that has overtaken Union labor. They exploit and abuse any way they can, with the excuse that "hey corporations are abusing, why can't we!" And you wonder why the tide is turning against Unions.
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