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Old 02-14-2012, 03:50 PM
 
142 posts, read 220,529 times
Reputation: 96

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
If you are fired inappropriately in a non-union environment, the person firing you would quickly be fired for poor performance. It is absolutely the contract that is the problem.
Sure, maybe, or maybe they're the boss's drinking buddy, or what-have-you.

The company could also be sued, which is why the contract may not matter here. Sure, if the teachers' contracts were all written up like part-time employment agreements at fast food joints, then anyone could be summarily dismissed at any time for any or no reason, so I guess that might help cut down on discrimination suits.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:54 PM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,108,445 times
Reputation: 5444
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieronymus Bosch View Post
Sure, maybe, or maybe they're the boss's drinking buddy, or what-have-you.

The company could also be sued, which is why the contract may not matter here. Sure, if the teachers' contracts were all written up like part-time employment agreements at fast food joints, then anyone could be summarily dismissed at any time for any or no reason, so I guess that might help cut down on discrimination suits.
Which is why we need to ramp up a voucher system. If a school hires people because they are the boss's drinking buddy, you should be able to pull your child out and put them in a different school. If that school will hire based on nepotism, let parents pull their kids out and let the school fail.
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Old 02-14-2012, 03:58 PM
 
142 posts, read 220,529 times
Reputation: 96
Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
Which is why we need to ramp up a voucher system. If a school hires people because they are the boss's drinking buddy, you should be able to pull your child out and put them in a different school. If that school will hire based on nepotism, let parents pull their kids out and let the school fail.

All union and personnel issues aside, this is definitely something I can get behind. It can also work to help support principals and teachers who are doing right by their students, but still catching flak from the district.
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:29 PM
 
1,522 posts, read 1,883,824 times
Reputation: 1016
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
You guys are using the usual obfuscation and deflection. If you criticize the obvious abuses, then you are "anti-blue collar worker" and "envious." And yes we can talk about corporate greed, and I have done that too...but that's not this thread..so again..more deflecting from the actual issue. These are all 5th grade level deflections from the issue. And if it were an abuse here and there, we would not, for example, have a 95% disability retirement rate for LIRR union labor (because it is untaxed if it is disability). So no..it isn't a rare thing...the system is set up to abuse and exploit..so that's what people do, with little to no accountability to anyone.

I am all for everyone having a great health plan, well paid compensation, etc, but that is not what we are talking about!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! What are we talking about:

1. We are talking about a system that has people who get paid $100K for 10 years to do nothing...and there isn't anything anyone can do about it. Clearly there is something wrong.

2. We have a system that encourages people at the LIRR to file for disability pensions and they ALL get them regardless of their actual health. Clearly there is something wrong.

3. We have a system where someone retires with a disability pension for "asthma" from the Fire Department and spends his free time running marathons and triathalons. Clearly there is something wrong.

So no..I am not "envious" of the fact that they are cheating the system..why would I be? I am not a cheater, and neither are most people, which is why we are frustrated and the nation is growing increasingly hostile towards Unions. There was a time when Unions were the counterweight to corporate greed, but not anymore. They are simply another group lobbying aggressively to fatten their wallets at taxpayers expense, no different than corporations...so now we have 2 pigs at the trough!

You can try to deflect from the real issue, because when you have no argument that's what you do. But the reality is the tide is turning against unions because of the corrupt system that has overtaken Union labor. They exploit and abuse any way they can, with the excuse that "hey corporations are abusing, why can't we!" And you wonder why the tide is turning against Unions.
Is there a chance you are basing your conclusions and prescriptions on rare and publicized exceptions in the teaching profession. Tell me, how many teachers work in NYC alone and how many got paid 100,000.00 per year for 11 years to do nothing?
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Old 02-14-2012, 04:36 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,669,893 times
Reputation: 4168
I am not speaking of the 1...there are rubber rooms filled with people for years, and there isn't anything anyone can do. Clearly there is a problem. I am highlighting 1 case, which is indicative of the kinds of abuses which occur...and there are plenty of others.

If the abuses were rare, as I said, we would not have a 95% disability pension rate for LIRR union labor. Why are you ignoring that? If you don't think the system is set up to exploit or abuse, you don't know the system.

http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local...132683463.html

Some nice quotes from the article:

"For nearly three years, the FBI, the New York Attorney General’s office and the MTA's Inspector General have been looking into how and why a disability pension was awarded to nearly every LIRR employee who requested one from 1998-2008."

"Also charged were former Union President Joseph Rutigliano and Marie Baran, who worked as consultants to help LIRR workers "game" the system, officials said. They were paid by LIRR workers for the service, prosecutors said."

"Disability status adds about $36,000 on average to retirees' pensions each year, according to the LIRR, which amounts to millions of additional costs to taxpayers annually."

"Prosecutors said Ajemian made more than $2 million. His patients have already collected $90 million in disability benefits and expect to get $210 million more."

"Lesniewski made more than $750,000. Disability payments to his patients have already totaled more than $31 million and the patients stand to receive $64 million more."

Rare indeed! And that's just the LIRR...but hey I am just "envious" right? Let's ignore those abuses and focus on the corporations right? Typical deflection....the problems are serious..and this is why Unions are seeing the backlash.

Last edited by SobroGuy; 02-14-2012 at 04:47 PM..
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:05 PM
 
Location: Dallas, TX
2,898 posts, read 4,973,961 times
Reputation: 2167
Quote:
Originally Posted by SobroGuy View Post
I am not speaking of the 1...there are rubber rooms filled with people for years, and there isn't anything anyone can do. Clearly there is a problem. I am highlighting 1 case, which is indicative of the kinds of abuses which occur...and there are plenty of others.

If the abuses were rare, as I said, we would not have a 95% disability pension rate for LIRR union labor. Why are you ignoring that? If you don't think the system is set up to exploit or abuse, you don't know the system.

11 Charged in Massive LIRR Disability Pension Scandal | NBC New York

Some nice quotes from the article:

"For nearly three years, the FBI, the New York Attorney Generalís office and the MTA's Inspector General have been looking into how and why a disability pension was awarded to nearly every LIRR employee who requested one from 1998-2008."

"Also charged were former Union President Joseph Rutigliano and Marie Baran, who worked as consultants to help LIRR workers "game" the system, officials said. They were paid by LIRR workers for the service, prosecutors said."

"Disability status adds about $36,000 on average to retirees' pensions each year, according to the LIRR, which amounts to millions of additional costs to taxpayers annually."

"Prosecutors said Ajemian made more than $2 million. His patients have already collected $90 million in disability benefits and expect to get $210 million more."

"Lesniewski made more than $750,000. Disability payments to his patients have already totaled more than $31 million and the patients stand to receive $64 million more."

Rare indeed! And that's just the LIRR...but hey I am just "envious" right? Let's ignore those abuses and focus on the corporations right? Typical deflection....the problems are serious..and this is why Unions are seeing the backlash.
Oh no, don't focus on corporations, it's those greedy MTA workers that are to blame for all our problems! If they just made minimum wage maybe we could just feel better about ourselves. But I digress.

The article you posted just serves to contradict your assertion that 'there's nothing anyone can do' about the abuses. Clearly there is, and it has been done. All those involved in FRAUD (because that's what this is) will be punished. That's all there's to it.
Fraud happens in all professions, whether it's unionized or not.
btw the scheme could not have been done without the help of outside doctors. Are we to blame and demonize all doctors now?
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:17 PM
 
4,913 posts, read 6,878,222 times
Reputation: 4284
Quote:
Fraud happens in all professions, whether it's unionized or not.

I've tried explaining this to him before. Save your breath. He just whines and blathers on until his City-Data curfew kicks in or his mom tells him to get off the computer or whatever it is that happens.
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Old 02-14-2012, 05:20 PM
 
Location: Portland, Oregon
46,054 posts, read 28,561,510 times
Reputation: 7824
Quote:
Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
Oh no, don't focus on corporations, it's those greedy MTA workers that are to blame for all our problems! If they just made minimum wage maybe we could just feel better about ourselves. But I digress.

The article you posted just serves to contradict your assertion that 'there's nothing anyone can do' about the abuses. Clearly there is, and it has been done. All those involved in FRAUD (because that's what this is) will be punished. That's all there's to it.
Fraud happens in all professions, whether it's unionized or not.
btw the scheme could not have been done without the help of outside doctors. Are we to blame and demonize all doctors now?
Exactly, it annoys me when something like this happen and people blame all the teachers rather than those involved in the fraud, yet when people on Wall Street bet against the country after they set up a system to fail, they get treated with a slap on the wrist and gets to blame it all on class warfare.

Also measuring a teacher's performance is completely subjective because it depends on the student's ability to learn and the number of students they are teaching. Better teachers come from better pay at the entry level with smaller class sizes and proper funding to give the teacher the ability to teach and the flexibility for the teacher to mold a class that better fits the students that are in the class rather than a one size fits all. Which much of this money could be found in our military and corporate subsidies.
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Old 02-14-2012, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,404 posts, read 19,793,867 times
Reputation: 6238
What's the point in focusing on a situation like this when the reality is that there are 70,000 teachers in the DOE,the vast majority of whom are very well qualified,quite dedicated and who don't make anywhere near what this clown does.

This creep's situation isn't representative of anything.It's a rare exception,not the rule.Fox News seems to specialize in whipping up hysteria based on things that happen rarely.

I've seen many teachers get the axe.One got the axe just a few weeks ago at my school, so I don't know why people think it's impossibly hard.
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Old 02-14-2012, 07:09 PM
 
4,913 posts, read 6,878,222 times
Reputation: 4284
bluedog please stop bringing logic and first hand experience into this thread, it's completely unnecessary.
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