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Old 02-14-2012, 08:28 PM
 
716 posts, read 1,074,047 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stantheman78 View Post
Has anyone saw this video on Fox?
FOX?!?!?!? Come on.
While I think there are teachers undergoing a ridiculously lengthy disciplinary process in NYC and it needs to be fixed, I wouldn't give much credibility to Rupert Murdoch's little drones and minions at Fox. They fabricate and spin to fit their boss's political agenda. Fox is more propaganda, than it is news.
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Old 02-14-2012, 10:54 PM
 
8,680 posts, read 12,897,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by urbanlife78 View Post
Exactly, it annoys me when something like this happen and people blame all the teachers rather than those involved in the fraud, yet when people on Wall Street bet against the country after they set up a system to fail, they get treated with a slap on the wrist and gets to blame it all on class warfare.

Also measuring a teacher's performance is completely subjective because it depends on the student's ability to learn and the number of students they are teaching. Better teachers come from better pay at the entry level with smaller class sizes and proper funding to give the teacher the ability to teach and the flexibility for the teacher to mold a class that better fits the students that are in the class rather than a one size fits all. Which much of this money could be found in our military and corporate subsidies.
Basing a teacher's evaluation on how the students perform is short-sighted not only because it does not account for the students' ability to learn, it also ignores the effects of poverty, poor nutrition, crime, drug or alcohol addiction, gang membership, emotional and behavioral issues, a bad home life, disengaged parents, overengaged parents (those who refuse to let teachers discipline their children), and other elements that are beyond the control of any given teacher. A student's performance is the sum of many parts.
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Old 02-15-2012, 06:54 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,070,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Yzette View Post
Basing a teacher's evaluation on how the students perform is short-sighted not only because it does not account for the students' ability to learn, it also ignores the effects of poverty, poor nutrition, crime, drug or alcohol addiction, gang membership, emotional and behavioral issues, a bad home life, disengaged parents, overengaged parents (those who refuse to let teachers discipline their children), and other elements that are beyond the control of any given teacher. A student's performance is the sum of many parts.
I understand your point, but I am also going to contend that it doesn't matter. The teacher's job is to teach. If you are a financial manager, you aren't treated easier when the country is in a recession. If you sell shoes, you don't get it easier if the people who come to your store have no intention of buying shoes. Every job has its challenges, and those who are best at their jobs are the ones who can be successful in spite of the roadblocks. Everything you mentioned is an issue, and the good teacher has to find a way to deal with it. Just like anyone at any other job finds a way to deal with the problems.

Deal with the problems at your job or you are fired. That is the way the working world is, and that is the way teaching jobs should be as well.
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Old 02-15-2012, 08:39 AM
 
142 posts, read 219,829 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
I understand your point, but I am also going to contend that it doesn't matter. The teacher's job is to teach. If you are a financial manager, you aren't treated easier when the country is in a recession. If you sell shoes, you don't get it easier if the people who come to your store have no intention of buying shoes. Every job has its challenges, and those who are best at their jobs are the ones who can be successful in spite of the roadblocks. Everything you mentioned is an issue, and the good teacher has to find a way to deal with it. Just like anyone at any other job finds a way to deal with the problems.

Deal with the problems at your job or you are fired. That is the way the working world is, and that is the way teaching jobs should be as well.
I hear you, but:
It's hard to think of very many jobs where the compensation package and very nature of the work change so drastically with the zip code. It'd be more like 2 bricklayers who get paid to build houses, except one only gets 75 on the dollar, and also has to lay the foundation first. Tell this same bricklayer that he'll only be paid piecemeal from now on, or that his performance will be measured against the other one, and he's bound to get testy about it.
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:01 AM
 
9,856 posts, read 13,070,136 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hieronymus Bosch View Post
I hear you, but:
It's hard to think of very many jobs where the compensation package and very nature of the work change so drastically with the zip code. It'd be more like 2 bricklayers who get paid to build houses, except one only gets 75 on the dollar, and also has to lay the foundation first. Tell this same bricklayer that he'll only be paid piecemeal from now on, or that his performance will be measured against the other one, and he's bound to get testy about it.
I definitely understand, however again, it is like that at many jobs.

I am paid the same as most of my co-workers, but sometimes I get a six month project that is five times as hard as theirs. Sometimes a salesman has a difficult customer, sometimes he doesn't. Sometimes a computer programmer has a very hard coding challenge, sometimes he/she doesn't.

This goes back to why we need to de-unionize teachers. If we de-unionize we can pay top wages to the teachers who teach in inner city/rough neighborhoods. If the market was allowed to drive wages, this problem would fix itself. Imagine if you offered $170k/year to teach middle school in an inner city. Teachers good enough to handle that challenge would move to the city for the job. Unionization if anything keeps the best teachers away from school systems that need them the most.
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Old 02-15-2012, 10:54 AM
 
Location: Beautiful Pelham Parkway,The Bronx
8,398 posts, read 19,730,614 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
.....
This goes back to why we need to de-unionize teachers. If we de-unionize we can pay top wages to the teachers who teach in inner city/rough neighborhoods. If the market was allowed to drive wages, this problem would fix itself. Imagine if you offered $170k/year to teach middle school in an inner city. Teachers good enough to handle that challenge would move to the city for the job. Unionization if anything keeps the best teachers away from school systems that need them the most.
LOL. You mean it would increase teachers pay the same way de unionization increased the pay of workers in all the other industries that have been de -unionized in the last 2 decades ?

Do you have any examples of industries that have been "de-unionized" where the "de-unionization" resulted in higher wages for the workers ? Are the teachers in non union states and municipalities paid more than teachers in states with teachers unions ? Links to studies with proven results would be greatly appreciated.

Last edited by bluedog2; 02-15-2012 at 11:06 AM..
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Old 02-15-2012, 12:40 PM
 
8,750 posts, read 15,623,122 times
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I am not demonizing Unions, but why ignore the reality of what Unions are doing today? They are a big money special interest group lobbying to enrich themselves and expand their power, at the expense of the taxpayer and the interest of the public. This is exactly what the "evil" corporations do and why we don't like them remember?

I am all for good wages, expansive benefits like healthcare, vacation time, sick time, personal days... I want everyone to have these things. But what I don't want is Public Sector Union big wigs making themselves fat, creating abusive and burdensome contracts which make government fatter, more inefficient, and ineffective, exploiting loop holes and dragging everything through litigation should it not be to their favor, and subsequently creating a corrupt environment in which votes are bought and paid for by further fattening Unions.

And that is what we have today. If you believe otherwise, you are not familiar with the Unions. 50 years ago they were a necessity and a counterweight, they expanded the middle class and provided the work conditions we all enjoy today. I got that...but that was 50 years ago. Being against the abuse and corruption which have enveloped Union labor does not make you "anti-blue collar" nor "envious." Yes corporations need to change, BUT SO DO UNIONS, but somehow, we are supposed to give Unions a free pass to exploit and corrupt the system because? Because?

You deflect by saying "But what about the corporations"....open a thread and let's talk about corporations! But this thread is about Unions, and in order to have an honest conversation, we need to discuss the reality of what Unions are today and what they are doing today. And they are as bad as corporations, not a counterweight. Believe it.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:10 PM
 
8,680 posts, read 12,897,838 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hnsq View Post
I understand your point, but I am also going to contend that it doesn't matter. The teacher's job is to teach. If you are a financial manager, you aren't treated easier when the country is in a recession. If you sell shoes, you don't get it easier if the people who come to your store have no intention of buying shoes. Every job has its challenges, and those who are best at their jobs are the ones who can be successful in spite of the roadblocks. Everything you mentioned is an issue, and the good teacher has to find a way to deal with it. Just like anyone at any other job finds a way to deal with the problems.

Deal with the problems at your job or you are fired. That is the way the working world is, and that is the way teaching jobs should be as well.
There are always going to be things that are out of any given worker's control. A shoe salesman can't sell shoes if no one comes into the store in the first place. That's what crime and gang membership cause in the schools: Low attendance. He also can't sell shoes if the styles on display are only available in size 6, or are available only in green. Too many teachers have to pay for supplies and so on out of their own pockets because they don't have the resources they need to teach. They are also forced to take a one-size fits all approach with respect to the curriculum.

Likewise, a financial manager cannot force his or her clients to invest in a certain product, even if that product is the best for the client. A teacher cannot force a student to do his or her homework or study for tests.
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Old 02-15-2012, 01:53 PM
 
6,964 posts, read 5,491,664 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
The only problem with that is that it's not true.

envy from one middle/lower class person against another middle/lower class person. Some (petty) people just can't live with the fact that some working class people are protected from potential abuse from their employer ot.

Here is the the issue.

1. NYC PS education is a disgrace.

2. NYC is one of the most highly tax jurisdictions in the nation.

3. Middle class people, struggling with high mortgages, rents and private school fees (because most publci schools are garbage), must also fund the pensions of those teachers who are incompetent. By the time they finish with all of this they then cant afford to fund THEIR OWN retirement.


I am at a loss to know why good teachers dont aggressively ensure that mechanisms are put in place to ensure that bad teachers are removed. Its in their own best interest. Instead the Union protects the incompetent.
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Old 02-15-2012, 02:00 PM
 
6,964 posts, read 5,491,664 times
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Originally Posted by likeminas View Post
.
In any case, it is not the guy's fault that you're struggling and makes less than a HS gradute. .
Dont worry. There will come a time when union workers will be out of work. Remember that the union bosses no longer have kids interested in these blue collar jobs, so really dont care that their attitude is leading to a mass exodus of unionized jobs from the city. After all why locate low skilled jobs in the city when other places offer low costs and taxes.

Once the tax base of NYC has been depleted as the PE and Hedge fund guys take off for Greenwich who is going to pay for all of thes epublic sector workers.

Note that NYC used to be HQ for many Fortune 500 companies. They left. So can the companies still locates in NYC.

What will the public sector unions do then? I know the bosses dont care as their kids have long ago left. But the workers who arent desired by any one in the private sector (bad attitude). What about them?
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